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29 minutes ago, UB85 said:

no, what he's doing with duke is ridiculous. ok, he doesn't put them on his poll to punish them for not playing on the road.  as he points out, others he previously left off, but now have played on the road, haven't done well.  but he doesn't really punish them too much for it - ie kansas, 0-2, #7.  so what was the point of leaving them off to begin with?  the polls are your opinion of the top teams. you don't know enough about duke to know if they're in the top 25? asinine.

I've only watched the Marquette, Syracuse, and EMU games - i disagree there aren't 15 better teams, and i'm not judging on the one loss - the wins were ugly too (which is it's own quality, but this looks like a good, not (yet) great team).

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28 minutes ago, UB85 said:

#19 it is. https://collegebasketball.ap.org/poll/2019/10

Aside from UB's rank at 19, the best thing about this poll is Arizona State getting only 1 measly vote for the top 25. After they beat an over-hyped and ranked Kansas team they lost to Princeton and Utah and at home no less.

c'mon now.   kansas has beaten michigan state, marquette, tennessee, villanova, with losses to asu and iowa st. 

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I've only seen their game with ASU. Their guards were atrocious. They had one superb shooter from the outside, other than that was not impressed. But the win against Tennessee is impressive. As we saw with Marquette they are a different team on the road than at home. Villanova has had a bunch of bad losses even though they slaughtered Providence over the weekend. KU just had a season ending injury to their big man so I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose quite a few more.

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26 minutes ago, ed said:

no, what he's doing with duke is ridiculous. ok, he doesn't put them on his poll to punish them for not playing on the road.  as he points out, others he previously left off, but now have played on the road, haven't done well.  but he doesn't really punish them too much for it - ie kansas, 0-2, #7.  so what was the point of leaving them off to begin with?  the polls are your opinion of the top teams. you don't know enough about duke to know if they're in the top 25? asinine.

I've only watched the Marquette, Syracuse, and EMU games - i disagree there aren't 15 better teams, and i'm not judging on the one loss - the wins were ugly too (which is it's own quality, but this looks like a good, not (yet) great team).

Completely disagree! Even though I am a minority view on Duke, the P5 schools are doing everything they can to consolidate their already overwhelming hold on college basketball and the $$$$ associated with it. Their latest power grab is to increase the # of conference games to provide fewer opportunities for mids to create a resume and fewer chances that their teams will sustain a "bad loss." When the NCAA tourney is reserved for the P5 count me out. It are the unlikely upsets that make the tourney what it is, must see TV. So punishing a Duke squad that doesn't play a true road game until two months into the season, which is a big time joke, is just fine by me. And as you say once they beat a "little sister of the poor" conference foe in Wake Forest they'll be right back on his ballot. 

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32 minutes ago, ed said:

no, what he's doing with duke is ridiculous. ok, he doesn't put them on his poll to punish them for not playing on the road.  as he points out, others he previously left off, but now have played on the road, haven't done well.  but he doesn't really punish them too much for it - ie kansas, 0-2, #7.  so what was the point of leaving them off to begin with?  the polls are your opinion of the top teams. you don't know enough about duke to know if they're in the top 25? asinine.

I've only watched the Marquette, Syracuse, and EMU games - i disagree there aren't 15 better teams, and i'm not judging on the one loss - the wins were ugly too (which is it's own quality, but this looks like a good, not (yet) great team).

I disagree wholeheartedly.  He is trying to make a point and has done this for several weeks in a row.  Once they play on the road, he puts them back in and evaluates them.

Duke is the ONLY team of 353 schools that have not played a true road game.  We are about 1/2 through the season.  That's crazy.  Graham is shining a light on this issue.

Here is the deal...imagine if UB played Marquette the second game of the season and lost by the same score..and all of the other results were the same.  I believe that UB would not be ranked at this time.   But because they won early, they get that benefit of starting from a higher position and the inertia it creates.   Duke....because they haven't played a road game yet..has all of that inertia from playing only home/neutral games already.  It gives them an unfair advantage.  Graham is calling them out for it.   Nothing else is...Duke is #1 in the AP poll and #2 in the NET.

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4 minutes ago, UB85 said:

Completely disagree! Even though I am a minority view on Duke, the P5 schools are doing everything they can to consolidate their already overwhelming hold on college basketball and the $$$$ associated with it. Their latest power grab is to increase the # of conference games to provide fewer opportunities for mids to create a resume and fewer chances that their teams will sustain a "bad loss." When the NCAA tourney is reserved for the P5 count me out. It are the unlikely upsets that make the tourney what it is, must see TV. So punishing a Duke squad that doesn't play a true road game until two months into the season, which is a big time joke, is just fine by me. And as you say once they beat a "little sister of the poor" conference foe in Wake Forest they'll be right back on his ballot. 

Which makes this useless. If enough people start doing this, ok, everyone schedules some shitty team to beat up. What’s that do for mid majors who are decent and change any of your criticism? It’s a mockery of the rankings, and popping someone from I ranked to ranked for beating miss valley makes it even more so. 

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42 minutes ago, ed said:

no, what he's doing with duke is ridiculous. ok, he doesn't put them on his poll to punish them for not playing on the road.  as he points out, others he previously left off, but now have played on the road, haven't done well.  but he doesn't really punish them too much for it - ie kansas, 0-2, #7.  so what was the point of leaving them off to begin with?  the polls are your opinion of the top teams. you don't know enough about duke to know if they're in the top 25? asinine.

He's proving a point and expressing what many people are thinking but don't have the stones to say. Power 5 teams that have the luxury and taking advantage of their status, practically get to play all of their OOC games at home and on a neutral courts that are usually dominated by their fans anyway.

I myself, agree with him on many levels.



 

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36 minutes ago, mikescherrer8 said:

He's proving a point and expressing what many people are thinking but don't have the stones to say. Power 5 teams that have the luxury and taking advantage of their status, practically get to play all of their OOC games at home and on a neutral courts that are usually dominated by their fans anyway.

I myself, agree with him on many levels.


of course they're taking advantage of their status. wow, teams want to win and make money? news at 10.  we also want games advantageous to us; we just don't have the clout to do it. 

and what point is he "proving"? the top teams he didn't rank are all ranked highly anyway.  all he's doing is making himself the story - anyone who cares about mid major scheduling already knows - what, it took the lansing st journal for people to realize that top teams weren't travelling to mid majors? yeah, no. he's like the baseball writers who won't vote for someone because they don't think anyone should get in unanimously.  

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2 minutes ago, ed said:

of course they're taking advantage of their status. wow, teams want to win and make money? news at 10.  we also want games advantageous to us; we just don't have the clout to do it. 

and what point is he "proving"? the top teams he didn't rank are all ranked highly anyway.  all he's doing is making himself the story - anyone who cares about mid major scheduling already knows - what, it took the lansing st journal for people to realize that top teams weren't travelling to mid majors? yeah, no. he's like the baseball writers who won't vote for someone because they don't think anyone should get in unanimously.  

Ed, then stop reading his work and his articles then. It's not hard to do. You're just finding something to get flustered about.

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33 minutes ago, mikescherrer8 said:

Ed, then stop reading his work and his articles then. It's not hard to do. You're just finding something to get flustered about.

i'm not flustered.  i just find it asinine.

and for the record, he's not voting because he claims you learn so much about a team when they play on the road, where it's so much tougher, not because of p5 power and screwing over the little guy. and that rationale is nonsense; if duke went and beat up miss valley, he'd rank them.  but what would he have learned about the team? jack squat.  

and, of course, it lessens his vote for buffalo.  yea, we're ranked ahead of duke, woohoo!  not. 

Edit: even better, rather than picking on miss st - they go beat up a wash st or Rutgers. Keep it in p5. It has nothing to do with BETTER schedules and definitely nothing to do with mid majors. Just an arbitrary distinction about playing a road game. 

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1 hour ago, UB92 said:

I disagree wholeheartedly.  He is trying to make a point and has done this for several weeks in a row.  Once they play on the road, he puts them back in and evaluates them.

Duke is the ONLY team of 353 schools that have not played a true road game.  We are about 1/2 through the season.  That's crazy.  Graham is shining a light on this issue.

Here is the deal...imagine if UB played Marquette the second game of the season and lost by the same score..and all of the other results were the same.  I believe that UB would not be ranked at this time.   But because they won early, they get that benefit of starting from a higher position and the inertia it creates.   Duke....because they haven't played a road game yet..has all of that inertia from playing only home/neutral games already.  It gives them an unfair advantage.  Graham is calling them out for it.   Nothing else is...Duke is #1 in the AP poll and #2 in the NET.

Agree with mikescherrer8 and UB92. Couch is just shinning a light on an isssue that many fans are thinking and talking about. The polls are dictated in many instances by brands not strictly by basketball. What drives many of the opinions especially by the major media types is power, influence and the almighty $$$$$. The majority of the media want to talk only about the major power conferences. Do you think anyone in power and influence is going to criticize Duke for their scheduling. At any rate it is exciting and drunk to have UB on the national stage and let’s all enjoy the ride. Go Bulls!!!!

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4 minutes ago, John said:

Agree with mikescherrer8 and UB92. Couch is just shinning a light on an isssue that many fans are thinking and talking about. The polls are dictated in many instances by brands not strictly by basketball. What drives many of the opinions especially by the major media types is power, influence and the almighty $$$$$. The majority of the media want to talk only about the major power conferences. Do you think anyone in power and influence is going to criticize Duke for their scheduling. 

Again, Couch isn't shining a light on or criticizing any of that. He'd be happy as a clam and rank them if they played a single can with a name in a p5 on theroad. He's just got a hard on about road games. Doesn't care who it is. That doesn't help scheduling at all.

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3 minutes ago, ed said:

Again, Couch isn't shining a light on or criticizing any of that. He'd be happy as a clam and rank them if they played a single can with a name in a p5 on theroad. He's just got a hard on about road games. Doesn't care who it is. That doesn't help scheduling at all.

Again you are entitled to your opinion but you cannot see the forest for the trees. It’s not a problem if you only favor the power conferences but our family will follow our UB and local teams and always tout our mid major teams. Go Bulls!!!!

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Wonder how far the Bulls will drop in rankings with a loss? Look at Nevada imploding on the road to Utah St. The NET dropped them like a hot potato - from 8th to 29th. They’re still up there in the AP and Coach’s Polls. The NET is the poll that counts in March. So just don’t lose any games...unless you’re a P5 or BE. Then it’s not that big a deal. Buffalo now 23rd in NET.

I was mistaken to infer that the NET ratings will determine the at-large berths in March. How foolish of me. The NET ratings are simply a tool that may be referred to by the committee members when selecting teams (initially up to 36 on each ballot) that they feel belong in the NCAA playoffs even should they not win their conference tournament. So theoretically, even should UB finish in the top 36 in the final NET ratings, it is possible that they would not be voted an at-large spot. 

I still will be watching all the polls, but the Bulls have to focus on each game as it comes. 

Edited by squire17
Research illuminating how NET will be used in March
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1 hour ago, ed said:

 yeah, no. he's like the baseball writers who won't vote for someone because they don't think anyone should get in unanimously.  

It isn't like that at all.  

Ken Griffey, Jr. was not voted in unanimously for the hall of fame...just because, as you say, a few writers didn't want anyone to be voted in at 100%.  There really isn't a good, actionable reason for this and they are not asking/implying any change for the future. 

On the other hand, Couch is clearly implying that teams need to play true road games in OOC.  Yes...he "couches" it with statements about not having enough information to evaluate those teams, etc., but it isn't difficult to infer his meaning.

And this sort of scheduling (that Syracuse was famous for) has impact since it allows teams to get firmly established in the rankings for two months and build up win totals before being tested on the road.   And perception is very important.  It is valuable that there is a lot of talk now about UB, for example, because of that WVa win early on.

UB played on home against SIU on a Saturday, went on the road vs. Syracuse on a Tuesday and played in Marquette on a Friday.  It would have been nice if UB drove back from Syracuse on Tuesday to prepare for a home game against Marquette on Friday ...but they don't have that luxury.  Duke didn't have to face those road tests.

As a fan of UB, I would think this issue would be a no-brainer for UB fans (and all mid-major fans) to support.

 

Of course, if/when UB is in a P5 conference and plays one road test in 14 games (instead of the 7 this year), I may have a different opinion.  😀

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, John said:

Agree with mikescherrer8 and UB92. Couch is just shinning a light on an isssue that many fans are thinking and talking about. The polls are dictated in many instances by brands not strictly by basketball. What drives many of the opinions especially by the major media types is power, influence and the almighty $$$$$. The majority of the media want to talk only about the major power conferences. Do you think anyone in power and influence is going to criticize Duke for their scheduling. At any rate it is exciting and drunk to have UB on the national stage and let’s all enjoy the ride. Go Bulls!!!!

No point in arguing with someone who has outdated opinions on the ranking system and doesn't like change and goes with whatever opinion AP ballot voters have.

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9 minutes ago, mikescherrer8 said:

No point in arguing with someone who has outdated opinions on the ranking system and doesn't like change and goes with whatever opinion AP ballot voters have.

Agree and I meant fun not drunk in my post!!!! On to the Toledo game and hope for a sellout. Go Bulls!!!!

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I agree and disagree lol. It’s ridiculous they haven’t played a road game. It’s the issue I’ve always had with Syracuse always being overhyped (good thing it didn’t matter for us this year anyway 😉 ) it’s just so much harder to play a true road game no matter where it is. 

That being said..duke is definitely a top 25 team. Leaving them totally out is a little too much. 

I’m happy know that come March we will be battle tested that’s for sure. Glad to be back in the teens. Feels good. 

Don’t think Nevada should be top 10 right now. Marquette should be above us. Let’s take care of business this week and hope for some mayhem above in the rankings. Of course I’m blown away to be ranked at all and for this many weeks in a row but I’m all for the steady grind upward 

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2 hours ago, John said:

Again you are entitled to your opinion but you cannot see the forest for the trees. It’s not a problem if you only favor the power conferences but our family will follow our UB and local teams and always tout our mid major teams. Go Bulls!!!!

I understand and see the scheduling problem w/ P5s. Point is, what Couch is doing has nothing to do with that particular forest - he's happy to rank the teams after they play any other team, p5 or not. 

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2 hours ago, UB92 said:

 On the other hand, Couch is clearly implying that teams need to play true road games in OOC.  Yes...he "couches" it with statements about not having enough information to evaluate those teams, etc., but it isn't difficult to infer his meaning.

 And this sort of scheduling (that Syracuse was famous for) has impact since it allows teams to get firmly established in the rankings for two months and build up win totals before being tested on the road.   And perception is very important.  It is valuable that there is a lot of talk now about UB, for example, because of that WVa win early on.

UB played on home against SIU on a Saturday, went on the road vs. Syracuse on a Tuesday and played in Marquette on a Friday.  It would have been nice if UB drove back from Syracuse on Tuesday to prepare for a home game against Marquette on Friday ...but they don't have that luxury.  Duke didn't have to face those road tests.

As a fan of UB, I would think this issue would be a no-brainer for UB fans (and all mid-major fans) to support.

What Couch is doing doesn't help that though - Duke replacing a good Texas Tech home game to play Sourthern on the road doesn't help the issue you're talking about, but he'd apparently rank them because of that.  A few of you seems to think Couch is trying to get the blue bloods to schedule better games, including with mid majors.  He's not.  He wants them to play any road game.  How's that help a solid mid major that nobody wants to play at their house? They'll still not play there. 

Saying that you need a true road game to evaluate a team is nonsense. If Gonzaga had no road games and 'only' beaten Duke on a neutral court, his argument is you can't evaluate them.   He wants to penalize teams that don't have the "courage" to play road games.  Not good road games against good teams.  Any road games.  And he doesn't even seem to care if they lose.  He ranked Michigan State 1 after they lost to Rutgers; say they had beat Duke at home instead? Unranked! Duke losing at BC only dropped them from 1 to 2.  

And of course the flip side of a mid major playing on the road is there's added notice and credit given for a road win against a tough team. Looking at that WVU win, how many of the stories made a huge deal about it being on the road? Like every one? And it theoretically explicitly counts more come tourney time.

Just keep winning, and top tier programs will come play you ((minus a couple blue bloods) see Gonzaga (who isn't exactly scrambling to schedule tough mid majors on the road, eh?)). Don't make what Couch is doing into something it's not.

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6 minutes ago, ed said:

What Couch is doing doesn't help that though - Duke replacing a good Texas Tech home game to play Sourthern on the road doesn't help the issue you're talking about, but he'd apparently rank them because of that.  A few of you seems to think Couch is trying to get the blue bloods to schedule better games, including with mid majors.  He's not.  He wants them to play any road game.  How's that help a solid mid major that nobody wants to play at their house? They'll still not play there. 

Saying that you need a true road game to evaluate a team is nonsense. If Gonzaga had no road games and 'only' beaten Duke on a neutral court, his argument is you can't evaluate them.   He wants to penalize teams that don't have the "courage" to play road games.  Not good road games against good teams.  Any road games.  And he doesn't even seem to care if they lose.  He ranked Michigan State 1 after they lost to Rutgers; say they had beat Duke at home instead? Unranked! Duke losing at BC only dropped them from 1 to 2.  

And of course the flip side of a mid major playing on the road is there's added notice and credit given for a road win against a tough team. Looking at that WVU win, how many of the stories made a huge deal about it being on the road? Like every one? And it theoretically explicitly counts more come tourney time.

Just keep winning, and top tier programs will come play you ((minus a couple blue bloods) see Gonzaga). Don't make what Couch is doing into something it's not.

These are all good discussions and different opinions give different perspectives on what should be scheduling of games by teams. There have been many articles about scheduling especially on the mid major level. I do not agree with your statement that if you keep winning the top tier programs will play you. But where are thy going to play you?? My opinion is that the power conferences want to totally dictate who they play and where. Many of them don’t want to risk their status and play a very competitive mid major. Again it is power, influence and the almighty$$$$. Please let’s call a spade a spade. In the meantime our family will continue to enjoy these exciting years and support our team and enjoy basketball for what it is. Go Bulls!!!!!

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7 hours ago, squire17 said:

Wonder how far the Bulls will drop in rankings with a loss?

Bulls drop out of the Top 25 for sure with a MAC loss any time soon. There may be some leeway if they lose one later in the season after piling up wins but even that might not hold. 

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16 hours ago, ed said:

Just keep winning, and top tier programs will come play you ((minus a couple blue bloods) see Gonzaga (who isn't exactly scrambling to schedule tough mid majors on the road, eh?)).

But what you say isn't true.  Gonzaga is an outlier.  Remember there are about 60 or 70 P5 schools...and the other nearly 300 are not.

Let's look right in our own conference, the MAC, for sustained excellence:  Kent State.  They may not be able to read or write, but they can play basketball. 

From 1998-99 to 2012-13, Kent State won 20 games in all of those seasons except one (they won 19 that year, 2008-09).  According to your premise, if you "just keep winning...top tier programs will come play you".   So...it is easy to look at what happened during the last several years for Kent State during that time since they "kept winning" for many years in a row.  Note that I include 2013-14 since that is the year after they won 21 games in 2012-13 season.

OOC Home Games for KSU

2013-14:    Ohio Northern, St. Peters, Western Carolina, USC-Upstate, Niagara, YSU, Kennesaw State, Bucknell, Cleveland State
2012-13:   Rochester, Drexel, Temple, Chicago State, Valpo, Bethune-Cookman, Princeton, St. Francis, Arkansas State, Fairmont State
2011-12:   Rochester, Alcorn State, Cleveland State, Louisiana-Lafayette, Morehead State, UAB, Shawnee State
2010-11:  Rochester, Robert Morris, Furman, Lehigh, Louisiana-Monroe, Youngstown State, James Madison

 

Just because you say things, doesn't make it true. 

 

So...if Graham Couch is going to call out teams for not playing road games in a silly way (i.e. by not ranking them), I am for it.  We have only a very little voice to begin with (i.e. the mid-majors), so we have to take what we can get.  Otherwise...1-bid MAC and 10-bid B1G with a team that has 16 losses.

 

 

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