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What’s wrong with BSU?


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So obviously I see our program through our beautiful royal blue shaded glasses and always felt UB was a sleeping giant inside the MAC waiting to emerge.  (No, we are not there yet.) I have also always leaned more basketball then football, but felt the university could/should dominate both.  But speaking exclusively from the basketball side, Batman needs joker, etc.  I kinda thought that would be Ball State.  Big state school, basketball crazed state, beautiful arena, good budget, good history, close to recruit rich cities... MAC could be a great basketball conference but BSU needs to get their act together.  I hope they do.

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Ball State is like the 5th or 6th best program in terms of name recognition and historical performance in the state of Indiana. With programs like Purdue, Indiana, Indiana State, Notre Dame, Butler...who the hell is going to support and pay attention to Ball State?  At least in Ohio you have only 1 or 2 big programs, and the rest are all about the same mid-major MAC level.  In Indiana they're stuck at the bottom of the barrel with Valpo and IUPUI.  Announcers said like night that pretty much the entire team other than like 2 guys are from Indiana.  So they're fighting for the scraps in the state. Add to that, while they are a large institution, they're not a particularly good one.  Ball State is so academically poor that in the 2019 WSJ rankings they don't even get an actual ranking number.  They just get thrown into the pot of 501-600.  In contrast, UB is #120 in the nation.  In terms of best public universities, UB is #28.  For contrast, #25 is Penn State, #26 is Virginia Tech, and #27 is Minnesota.  Ball State isn't in the top 100.   The only similarity between UB and Ball State is that they are both public and both in the MAC.  It ends there.  Buffalo is a Big Ten school playing in the MAC.  Ball State is a bad MAC school playing in the MAC.

Edited by UBigbobby
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27 minutes ago, UBigbobby said:

  Buffalo is a Big Ten school playing in the MAC.  Ball State is a bad MAC school playing in the MAC.

We think alike.  You win the day for me.

I wonder...is there is a way for the powers that be to include Toronto in their view of Buffalo's athletic impact?  I mean, it's about 2 hours away and (IIRC) has about 10x the population of Buffalo.   UB profiles, academically, as a B1G school.  Of that, there is no doubt.  But the comparisons start to go downhill from there.  Investment in athletics, facilities, fan base, what is considered market impact, etc.  I think that smarter people than I am can really pitch UB in the right way that speaks to what others have called this "sleeping giant" from an athletics standpoint.

 

Beating Ball State is fine.  However, I would have liked UB to beat Indiana last night at home.

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12 minutes ago, UB92 said:

We think alike.  You win the day for me.

I wonder...is there is a way for the powers that be to include Toronto in their view of Buffalo's athletic impact?  I mean, it's about 2 hours away and (IIRC) has about 10x the population of Buffalo.   UB profiles, academically, as a B1G school.  Of that, there is no doubt.  But the comparisons start to go downhill from there.  Investment in athletics, facilities, fan base, what is considered market impact, etc.  I think that smarter people than I am can really pitch UB in the right way that speaks to what others have called this "sleeping giant" from an athletics standpoint.

 

Beating Ball State is fine.  However, I would have liked UB to beat Indiana last night at home.

Buffalo's problem in terms of becoming a Big Ten school IMO isn't just athletics investment, it's also regional loyalty and appeal.  This is what Danny White was trying to address with the NY Bulls initiative that people were trying to run him out of town for.  Big Ten school's are all the flagship institutions in their state.  In all but a couple cases, their official name is State University at/of/, etc. However they simply go by the state name due to their size and prominence.  The University of Michigan isn't actually called just the University of Michigan.  it's The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.  Wisconsin is The University of Wisconsin, Madison.  Minnesota is the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, etc. Hell, even Penn State.  The Penn State we know is Penn State, University Park.  There are like 20 Penn States (I work with them).  Penn State, Erie Behrend College.  Penn State Greater Allegheny, Penn State Beaver, etc. Of course we're the State University of New York at Buffalo.  Same deal, however due to history and the Buffalo inferiority complex, we insist on going by Buffalo, rather than New York. For UB there is, IMO a limiting factor on the University's branding reach due to the local population being so hostile to transitioning to UB becoming the Minnesota, Twin Cities of NY State.  This damn Buffalo inferiority complex is getting in the way.  By branding themselves as New York, more than Buffalo, just as Wisconsin brands themselves more as Wisconsin than as Madison, and then combine that with actual athletics success, you can start to build towards becoming the state university that EVERYONE in NY gets behind, like in those Big Ten states.

Without that, I fear that UB will never have the marketing appeal or support beyond WNY.  People in Poughkeepsie, or Hampstead, or NYC would likely get behind the University of New York, but I'll be damned if they're going to buy in to rooting for Buffalo, for example.  As a result, I don't think UB will ever join to Big Ten because of issues like this.  Honestly, I think we shot ourselves in the foot by putting up so much resistance to Danny White's plan.  

This is also why I think UB maxes out as an AAC school and despite being a peer institution to the Big Ten...UB just doesn't, and likely never will have the statewide marketing reach needed.

Edited by UBigbobby
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On the basketball court Ball St has suffered injuries this season which has exposed their lack of depth. Other than that if Buffalo needs a joker it ain’t nor should it be Ball St. We play them once maybe twice a year since they are in the west. For us teams like Kent, Akron, Ohio or Toledo are our jokers. Don’t look now but Toledo is playing well. Could the MAC title game be a rematch of last year?

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1 hour ago, UBigbobby said:

This damn Buffalo inferiority complex is getting in the way.

While I agree that this exists (and is a large part of the problem), there's also a lack of buy-in from the SUNY system. UB has tried to take it's rightful place as the flagship institution but SUNY won't allow Albany and even Binghamton/Stony Brook to be considered second tier despite being exactly that in nearly every category...

These threads will always devolve to beating a dead horse when it comes to larger arenas, conference changes etc. All we can hope for is continued winning and the positive things that can bring to the program. Oh, and those of us with the means to do so can support growth financially.

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47 minutes ago, UBigbobby said:

Buffalo's problem in terms of becoming a Big Ten school IMO isn't just athletics investment, it's also regional loyalty and appeal.  This is what Danny White was trying to address with the NY Bulls initiative that people were trying to run him out of town for.  Big Ten school's are all the flagship institutions in their state.  In all but a couple cases, their official name is State University at/of/, etc. However they simply go by the state name due to their size and prominence.  The University of Michigan isn't actually called just the University of Michigan.  it's The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.  Wisconsin is The University of Wisconsin, Madison.  Minnesota is the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, etc. Hell, even Penn State.  The Penn State we know is Penn State, University Park.  There are like 20 Penn States (I work with them).  Penn State, Erie Behrend College.  Penn State Greater Allegheny, Penn State Beaver, etc. Of course we're the State University of New York at Buffalo.  Same deal, however due to history and the Buffalo inferiority complex, we insist on going by Buffalo, rather than New York. For UB there is, IMO a limiting factor on the University's branding reach due to the local population being so hostile to transitioning to UB becoming the Minnesota, Twin Cities of NY State.  This damn Buffalo inferiority complex is getting in the way.  By branding themselves as New York, more than Buffalo, just as Wisconsin brands themselves more as Wisconsin than as Madison, and then combine that with actual athletics success, you can start to build towards becoming the state university that EVERYONE in NY gets behind, like in those Big Ten states.

Without that, I fear that UB will never have the marketing appeal or support beyond WNY.  People in Poughkeepsie, or Hampstead, or NYC would likely get behind the University of New York, but I'll be damned if they're going to buy in to rooting for Buffalo, for example.  As a result, I don't think UB will ever join to Big Ten because of issues like this.  Honestly, I think we shot ourselves in the foot by putting up so much resistance to Danny White's plan.  

This is also why I think UB maxes out as an AAC school and despite being a peer institution to the Big Ten...UB just doesn't, and likely never will have the statewide marketing reach needed.

I agree with you to a point.  Sure...I have my NYBI hat since, like you, I think the NY state branding is such a big prize (and available for the taking).  But for a variety of reasons, it didn't work out.  Now...one can either shrug and say (as you did) that "this damn Buffalo inferiority complex is getting in the way".  Or think of how to solve the problem.  White either underestimated or didn't factor in the negativity towards NYBI at home.  Okay...it is what it is.  How does one try to capture a larger market (NY state, etc.) from a branding perspective while acknowledging the longstanding affection the community has with the name of Buffalo (or UB)?  I mean, you either complain loudly or try to figure out a solution.

At the end of the day, we are going to have to realize that we are going to be called UB or Buffalo.  How we fashion a larger name around it to include NY is fine.  Heck, we already have/had it:  SUNY-Buffalo.  The rest is marketing.

I always envisioned a lightly defined NY State map with Buffalo as a big star in WNY and the words "Buffalo -- The Center of College Sports in New York".   Instead of "New York's Public Powerhouse".   Or something where the NY State part is subtle...instead of the boldness of NEW YORK on the jersey or field, which was a fail.

 

 

 

 

 

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Ok bobby, I’m sick of shoveling so I will play. Love your posts and love of UB athletics. Just want to get that out of the way.

no one is expecting BSU to compete with Indiana, Purdue or ND for recruits.  But those schools are competing for recruits nationally, like McDonald’s all American players.  So we can kind of erase them off the competition list.  Then you named Butler.  Former MAC member, went from the Horizon league to BE just recently.  I have underwear older then their BBall success.  A few decades ago they were not in the same conversation as BSU. Valpo? IUPUI? That is like saying how could UB possibly contend in a state with Siena and .... can’t think of a satellite commuter school in NY that plays basketball... anyway, how did BSU get past by the likes of Butler is my original point and that is a shame that it happened because a rising tide lifts all ships.  Maybe UB being so late to the party is part of the problem.  But if we are to continue growing the MAC needs to as well.  Hell, they don’t even need to grow, just stand back up to the heights they were previously.  BSU is laying down.

now can we expect growth from any of the ohio schools? It reminds me of the Simpsons episode when Mr Burns at the doctor finds out he has every disease and they are just jammed in a door stopping anyone of them from killing him.  Good luck w that.  

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I think we're also somewhat underestimating the work involved with sustaining success. Does UB look like we could be headed there? Sure. But were also a low-mediocre team until Hurley got us that first MACC... We graduate a ton of talent/scoring this year and while the incoming players look great a worst-case scenario would involve Oats leaving, taking some players with him and then where are we? Can we compete for a MAC title next year without them?

This run has been a blast but we need to do a LOT more to prove ourselves as an established program IMO.

I know I'm talking about us in a BSU thread but apply the same concept to them. They have the most MAC titles of any school and where are they now? This has proven nearly impossible for any programs in the MAC (so far).

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2 hours ago, UBigbobby said:

Buffalo's problem in terms of becoming a Big Ten school IMO isn't just athletics investment, it's also regional loyalty and appeal.  This is what Danny White was trying to address with the NY Bulls initiative that people were trying to run him out of town for.  Big Ten school's are all the flagship institutions in their state.  In all but a couple cases, their official name is State University at/of/, etc. However they simply go by the state name due to their size and prominence.  The University of Michigan isn't actually called just the University of Michigan.  it's The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.  Wisconsin is The University of Wisconsin, Madison.  Minnesota is the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, etc. Hell, even Penn State.  The Penn State we know is Penn State, University Park.  There are like 20 Penn States (I work with them).  Penn State, Erie Behrend College.  Penn State Greater Allegheny, Penn State Beaver, etc. Of course we're the State University of New York at Buffalo.  Same deal, however due to history and the Buffalo inferiority complex, we insist on going by Buffalo, rather than New York. For UB there is, IMO a limiting factor on the University's branding reach due to the local population being so hostile to transitioning to UB becoming the Minnesota, Twin Cities of NY State.  This damn Buffalo inferiority complex is getting in the way.  By branding themselves as New York, more than Buffalo, just as Wisconsin brands themselves more as Wisconsin than as Madison, and then combine that with actual athletics success, you can start to build towards becoming the state university that EVERYONE in NY gets behind, like in those Big Ten states.

Without that, I fear that UB will never have the marketing appeal or support beyond WNY.  People in Poughkeepsie, or Hampstead, or NYC would likely get behind the University of New York, but I'll be damned if they're going to buy in to rooting for Buffalo, for example.  As a result, I don't think UB will ever join to Big Ten because of issues like this.  Honestly, I think we shot ourselves in the foot by putting up so much resistance to Danny White's plan.  

This is also why I think UB maxes out as an AAC school and despite being a peer institution to the Big Ten...UB just doesn't, and likely never will have the statewide marketing reach needed.

That name changed was floated by Tom Golisano in exchange for a large donation around 2002. It was rejected and properly so, by President Greiner.

As for getting behind the University of New York, there would be issue with that name because of New York University, a school that has not been followed, despite the name,  since before it dropped to Division III after getting over the gambling scandals.

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3 minutes ago, BrooklynBull said:

That name changed was floated by Tom Golisano in exchange for a large donation around 2002. It was rejected and properly so, by President Greiner.

As for getting behind the University of New York, there would be issue with that name because of New York University, a school that has not been followed, despite the name,  since before it dropped to Division III after getting over the gambling scandals.

What about New York State University at Buffalo?

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBull said:

That name changed was floated by Tom Golisano in exchange for a large donation around 2002. It was rejected and properly so, by President Greiner.

As for getting behind the University of New York, there would be issue with that name because of New York University, a school that has not been followed, despite the name,  since before it dropped to Division III after getting over the gambling scandals.

NYU’s athletic programs though D3 are better funded than many D1 programs. Last I checked they flew to many if not most of their games. Heck ev n though UB is in much shape now in that regard than with Reggie we still have a long way to go. 

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Personally I think the AT Buffalo sounds ridiculous and certainly odd. Most who do not know UB as we do call UB university OF Buffalo because it’s natural and common. 

Getting back to the question posed here, if you read BSU’s board, one which I think is likely the best in the MAC with knowledgeable, insightful and many well reasoned posts, you get the obvious sense they believe currently the problem is their coach. They make not have the same academic standing as UB but they do have a rich basketball tradition. Rising tides lift all boats as we’ve seen with UB this year bringing the MAC’s hoops rating to #8 in the country. We need to maintain our consistency of the last several years, improve our fortunes and hope that BSU and/or several other schools boost their programs as well. Being consistently a top 6-10 conference is good for all. 

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This topic was certainly beaten-into-oblivion long before I started visiting these boards. And yes, this thread has gotten derailed, but I'll add to it anyway...

The problem from my perspective is that centuries ago someone decided to name the State the exact same name as a very, very big city.  It can be confusing, but many/most people naturally associate "New York" with NYC. Re-branding a school in Buffalo -- 400 some miles away from NYC -- is awkward at best. The only other States I can think of with identically named big cities are Iowa and Oklahoma.  The Iowa Hawkeyes are in Iowa City. The Oklahoma Sooners are in Norman, a suburb of Oklahoma City. And don't bring up Kansas City because it isn't even in Kansas.

When I was a student, it was the University of Buffalo. And the women sports teams were "The Royals". 

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I lived in Fort Wayne, Indiana for two years and was able to catch a few Ball State games while I was there. (My wife went to Ball State)

I'm honestly not sure why they aren't a better MAC program. They have a great recruiting base with Indianapolis and Fort Wayne nearby. Sure, the top guys in the state go to P5 programs or remain in-state at Indiana/Purdue/Notre Dame/Butler but there's a ton of great leftover talent, 3-star caliber players there for the taking.

Ball State has a great arena, nice tradition and play in a weak division. They should be much better. In fact, the thought was that they'd be solid this year. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case but I believe they'll be a better program moving forward.

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7 hours ago, UBigbobby said:

Ball State is like the 5th or 6th best program in terms of name recognition and historical performance in the state of Indiana. With programs like Purdue, Indiana, Indiana State, Notre Dame, Butler...who the hell is going to support and pay attention to Ball State?  At least in Ohio you have only 1 or 2 big programs, and the rest are all about the same mid-major MAC level.  In Indiana they're stuck at the bottom of the barrel with Valpo and IUPUI.  Announcers said like night that pretty much the entire team other than like 2 guys are from Indiana.

You're definitely right about where Ball State ranks in terms of support in Indiana but I'm not sure that's why they're struggling as much as they have recently.

In Ohio, you have Ohio State, Cincinnati, Xavier and Dayton. That's some strong competition. It might not equal Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame and Butler but it's awfully close.

Despite that, Ohio University and Akron have both recruited 3 and 4-star guys in the past. Ball State has a TON of solid players in their own backyard! (I lived an hour away. It's insane how many talented players come from Indiana.)

Indiana and Purdue battle for the top guys in the state. Notre Dame and Butler go after "their type of guys" while Ball State battles with the in-state schools (IUPUI, Purdue-Fort Wayne, Valpo, Indiana State, Evansville) and the rest of the MAC for the remaining players available.

There's more than enough talent for them to recruit. I'm not sure why they haven't been better for a long time.

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3 hours ago, UB85 said:

Personally I think the AT Buffalo sounds ridiculous and certainly odd. Most who do not know UB as we do call UB university OF Buffalo because it’s natural and common. 

yep.  just call it university of buffalo and be done with it.

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