Buffalo vs Olean CC (12/30 @ 7:00 pm)

[rma]

The part of your post that's missing: Both men’s and women’s basketball teams.

Bona ladies have only won h2h in 2015-16, and even then UB might have pulled out a win if they played at the end of the season.

Don't think UB has been clearly better than Bona men over the past 5 years.  It's been close as you point out.

However you cannot discount that UB won in a one bid league.  A slip up in March means a full season's worth of work sends the team to the NIT or worse.  A hot performance gives the underdogs a chance to make history.  UB women were a "last 4" in and made the Sweet 16 a few years back, and last year may have been in the WNIT if they didn't win the conference.  They came within striking distance of upsetting UConn and heading back to the Sweet 16. 

Don't like the rules, drop down to a one bid conference.  The MAAC would be eager to bring in a school with such a prestigious athletic and academic pedigree as St. Bonaventure.  

[DooleyBull06]

It’s very close. Both schools profile nearly the same. But objectively looking at this...UB has been slightly better this decade.

[squire17]

I’m only looking at the men’s teams. In the past ten seasons including the present, Bona is 7 - 3 against UB. The average final kenpom rank for each team in 9 prior seasons is Bona 78 and UB 100. However the trend suggests that their relative comparison is flipping in UB’s favor. I arbitrarily decided to use a ten year span, but the teams didn’t play each other much before that span. Overall, the A10 is a better conference in men’s basketball.

[squire17]

Just looking at current season MAC men’s basketball victories over OOC teams ranked in top 100 (per kenpom). There have only been 4: UB defeated Harvard (91) and DePaul (69); Ball St knocked off Georgia Tech (96); and Bowling Green beat Cincinnati (58). Against teams ranked in the top 100: Akron lost to 3 teams, Kent St lost 2, UB lost 1, Bowling Green lost 2, Ohio lost 3, Miami lost 1, Toledo lost 1, Ball St lost 1, N Illinois lost 4, E Michigan lost 1, C Michigan lost 4, and W Michigan lost 4. So 4 - 27 record against top 100. I’d say the MAC is up for grabs.

[squire17]

The A10 is 13 - 32 against top 100. One team didn’t play any OOC games against a top 100 team: DuQuesne.

[dutchcountry7]

Our Bulls have only been better than Bonas in the very short term.  I am not sure you could say any UB alumni exist where the Bulls were better all four years they were on campus.  We only have a two year win streak and many of our NCAa bids we were not ranked highly and wouldn’t have even made the NIT if we didn’t win the conference tournament. 
 

But the future looks like winning is going to be the norm and we are beholding a foundation.  They still have more fans and a better conference but on the court we are now becoming peers. 
 

maybe someday Bonas will talk about “Selling out the [new Aud] for UB games”. 

[dutchcountry7]

The women have done well but no one cares to compare women unless it is convenient.  Hosting Dayton was the biggest game this year and it only had 1,200 people show up. 

This would be like comparing softball team. 

 

[Kujo]

9 hours ago, rma said:

The part of your post that's missing: Both men’s and women’s basketball teams.

Bona ladies have only won h2h in 2015-16, and even then UB might have pulled out a win if they played at the end of the season.

Don't think UB has been clearly better than Bona men over the past 5 years.  It's been close as you point out.

However you cannot discount that UB won in a one bid league.  A slip up in March means a full season's worth of work sends the team to the NIT or worse.  A hot performance gives the underdogs a chance to make history.  UB women were a "last 4" in and made the Sweet 16 a few years back, and last year may have been in the WNIT if they didn't win the conference.  They came within striking distance of upsetting UConn and heading back to the Sweet 16. 

Don't like the rules, drop down to a one bid conference.  The MAAC would be eager to bring in a school with such a prestigious athletic and academic pedigree as St. Bonaventure.  

Admittedly I don’t pay attention to women’s.  Bona has struggled since losing their coach.   That’s the extent of my knowledge.  
 

I surely can appreciate the difficulties of competing in a 1 bid league and what can happen with one slip up.   When Bona received its at large in 2018, it had to play on eggshells nearly all season long because of a few early season slip ups.   That was a weak A10 that year, but nevertheless, as you point out being tasked with winning nearly every game is no short order in Division 1 hoops.  
 

Im not sure where from my post you inferred I don’t like the rules ?  I love the opportunity to play in a perennial multi bid league.   The point of emphasizing their having been screwed was to merely illustrate how if Bona was screwed in those years, then with the respective Resume UB had in those years, they certainly wouldn’t have gotten into the dance either.   Thus, my underlying point that the men’s program has not in any way been clearly better for 5 years. 

 

Funny you mention the MAAC.   With Bona’s location, size, and academics as well as budget, on paper they should be lucky to compete in the MAAC.   And yet, they compete in the Atlantic 10.   The odds-defying of such fuels a good deal of the pride Bona fans have.   Deep state pockets, resources and a massive student body are not amongst the fortunes of Bona. 
 

As far as the unprovoked insult you throw in at the end, well.   I can’t speak for your motivations for that.  And yet here I thought we were supposed to be the ones lacking for class. 

[rma]

2 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This would be like comparing softball team. 

Funny you say that.  Our softball team is terrible and we destroyed them last year, and split the series in 2013. We're 20-15 against them all time, despite our softball team playing in a lake and having zero resources.

 

2 minutes ago, Kujo said:

As far as the unprovoked insult you throw in at the end, well.   I can’t speak for your motivations for that.  And yet here I thought we were supposed to be the ones lacking for class. 

Maybe you're reading my comments as an insult.  I'll leave you to decide how to interpret my comments and motivations.  Last I checked, the MAAC doesn't have any Final Four teams or NIT Champions (though they do have 1 or 3 runner ups, depending on if you count MAAC schools before they joined).

[UBlearns]

3 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Our Bulls have only been better than Bonas in the very short term.  I am not sure you could say any UB alumni exist where the Bulls were better all four years they were on campus.  We only have a two year win streak and many of our NCAa bids we were not ranked highly and wouldn’t have even made the NIT if we didn’t win the conference tournament. 
 

But the future looks like winning is going to be the norm and we are beholding a foundation.  They still have more fans and a better conference but on the court we are now becoming peers. 
 

maybe someday Bonas will talk about “Selling out the [new Aud] for UB games”. 

I struggle to say that UB is "better" than Bona even in recent years....but I wouldn't say Bona is "better" either.  Last year, of course, not a question....UB's best team ever and a young Bona team.  The year before - most likely the second best team in UB history, Bona came into Alumni with Adams and Mobley and beat UB.  If I recall correctly, Wes Clark might not have played, but you can nitpick stuff like that in any game.  Regardless, a one-game-per-year sample size doesn't really cement anything in my book.  I certainly don't think that Dartmouth or Army are better than UB, and I don't think that Canisius or Siena are better than Bona...but such is the nature of sports.

I'm not really convinced that UB is "better" than Bona this year.  I have no delusions that UB would've won that game earlier this week if it was played in Olean.  It probably would've been close, just like the game was here.  They're pretty evenly matched teams.

In reality, I think these programs are remarkably close at the moment.  UB has had more success in the grand scheme in the past few years (national ranking, multiple round of 32 trips, 4 NCAAs in 5), but last year is the only year I think we can point to one of the teams having been clearly "better" than the other.  In theory, an upper-tier MAC team should be able to hold its own against an above-average A-10 team.....and that's about where these two programs have been for the past few years.  I think it's good for WNY basketball to have these teams both having some competitive success.  The crowd in Alumni the other day was unlike something I've ever seen except for very select conference games against Ohio or Bowling Green.  A rising tide lifts all WNY boats.  Just my two cents.

Edited January 1, 2020 by UBlearns
edited - typo

[trueblue32]

Alright I'll take the bait.

12 hours ago, Kujo said:

2015- UB wins The one bid MAC.   Bona finishes 7th in a 4 bid A10, which also had 2 NIT teams.   Bona beats UB in their matchup.   Nothing suggests UB is “better”, they simply win a far lesser league.  Consensus: Bona 

Since you point out Bona's injuries, UB is missing key players Xavier Ford and Rodell Wigginton in this game.  Both Kenpom and Barttorvik have UB ranked more than 50 spots ahead of Bonaventure.  Making it seem like its actually harder to make the tournament in a 4 bid league and hiding behind that is also weak.  Nobody's holding a gun to Bonaventure's head and making them stay in the A-10 when they belong in the MAAC.  Consensus: UB

Quote

2016- Bona wins the A10 regular season in a 3 way tie with VCU and Dayton, and gets absolutely screwed in the selection process, a consensus all time snub.

Bona was ranked around 90 in the metrics, rank 56th with a negative wins above bubble (resume metric) with 9 teams with better resumes also missing the tournament.  You might agree that you were an all-time snub on Bona boards but by predictive metrics and resume metrics you weren't even close.  This was UB's worst team during this stretch (particularly early in the year) and Bona's all-time snub team needs a buzzer beater to beat them.  Consensus: Bona by a buzzer beater

Quote

2017- Bona beats UB handily, neither team really comes close to an ncaa berth.   A10 sends 3 teams, MAC one.   Consensus: Bona clearly the  better team 

6 points at home is handily? Conveniently missing the fact that the Bulls are missing Big 4 Player of the Decade CJ Massinburg in the game.  Again, citing a conference you don't belong in's accomplishments as your own.  Consensus: toss-up

Quote

Bona gets screwed into a play in game, but beats the PAC 12 UCLA anyway.   UB, beats Arizona (a team who lost at home to UCLA less than a month earlier).   Call that a wash.

This might be the most laughable part of a laughable post.  Beating kenpom #56 UCLA in a defacto home game in Ohio by 7, is not a wash to beating kenpom #28 Arizona featuring #1 pick DeAndre Ayton by 21 on a neutral court.  I applaud the stones it takes to post something that idiotic though.

Quote

2019: Ub throttles Bona, clearly a better team.  Makes the dance.   Even when Bona was healthy and got to the A10 finals, UB clearly the better teAm.   They have a strong showing in the dance with the PAC 12 win.   Consensus: UB

You got this one right.

[DooleyBull06]

4 NCAA tournaments in 5 years. Case closed. You can argue kenpom all you nerds want. 4 NCAAs speaks the loudest.

[Kujo]

Who is hiding behind it being harder to make it in a multi bid league ? In 2015 if UB is in the Atlantic 10 they don’t sniff the tournament.   That’s the only reason for listing how deep a league it was that year.   EDIT: I admit I didn’t do much research into the injuries from that year, just recall Bona won.   Was UB better ?  Ye, seems so, but by a smaller margin Than your thumping about having made the dance would suggest.   I admit my Initial wrong about the details. 
 

I believe I accounted for Wes Clark’s Injury as well.   
 

I believe Bona was the first team in the history of the NCAA tournament to be both a top 30 RPI team and have won their league regular season title, and not receive a bid.   That is, by definition, an historic snub.   They were also one of only 3 teams that year to notch 2 top 25 RPI road wins.  
 

I believe in 2017 Bona was up by 18 in the second half, so yes, that’s handily.  EDIT: I admit not remembering that CJ did not play.   Looking at the 2 seasons, I would still say that combined with the match up gives the nod to Bona- but that is probably my bias.   Go with a toss up, that still supports my point.  

I believe in 2018, if you really want to go down the road of comparisons, we can look at Syracuse too.   Bona beat them on the road, UB did not.   Again, no one ever sat here and said Bona was better this season.  I simply said it was a wash. 
 

I also believe a game at Dayton, 7 hours from the school, is hardly a “defecto home game”.   So now Bona’s fan bases ability to travel to support their team somehow lessens their accomplishments ?

4 NCAA tournaments is excellent.   But we all know in those 4 year, UB doesn’t make the tournament in 3 of them if they play in a multi bid league.   Thus they wouldn’t have any more tournament appearances in that time than Bona.

Thus, the once again underlying point- that UB is not markedly better the last 5 years, which was the original point.  Did I ever say that Bona was better?  I don’t believe I did.   The 2 are very even.   I can’t help it if you misinterpreted my point as trying to say Bona was better, that was not my point.  
 

And of course, I’m met with words such as idiotic, and jabs such as “you belong in the MAAC”.  Again- I thought it was Bona fans who were supposed to be classless, yet which ones are the ones hurling insults?

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Kujo

[Kujo]

And if anyone doesn’t like me coming on here and arguing with statements that are just simply deluded untruths posted under the duress of a clear bias, perhaps consider that when some of your own come over to our board unprovoked, too.

 

i wish UB luck the rest of the way.   You’re building a great program and making great use out of the resources you have.    Bona is also building something nice for themselves, despite their resource challenges.   It’s good for both schools to have one another be competitive.   However at this juncture , one is not in any way clearly better than the other.  

Happy new year.  

[Kujo]

4 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Our Bulls have only been better than Bonas in the very short term.  I am not sure you could say any UB alumni exist where the Bulls were better all four years they were on campus.  We only have a two year win streak and many of our NCAa bids we were not ranked highly and wouldn’t have even made the NIT if we didn’t win the conference tournament. 
 

But the future looks like winning is going to be the norm and we are beholding a foundation.  They still have more fans and a better conference but on the court we are now becoming peers. 
 

maybe someday Bonas will talk about “Selling out the [new Aud] for UB games”. 

Yes, that’s my point.   I applaud you for your rational commentary and way of looking at things.    I’m a Buffalo resident- I read this board now and again.    You’re one of the only ones around here who seems to be able to remain objective.  I appreciate it.  

[squire17]

1 hour ago, DooleyBull06 said:

4 NCAA tournaments in 5 years. Case closed. You can argue kenpom all you nerds want. 4 NCAAs speaks the loudest.

By your logic, you are also saying that Iona is just as good. It has gone to the NCAA in 4 consecutive years. 

[squire17]

2 hours ago, Kujo said:

And if anyone doesn’t like me coming on here and arguing with statements that are just simply deluded untruths posted under the duress of a clear bias, perhaps consider that when some of your own come over to our board unprovoked, too.

 

i wish UB luck the rest of the way.   You’re building a great program and making great use out of the resources you have.    Bona is also building something nice for themselves, despite their resource challenges.   It’s good for both schools to have one another be competitive.   However at this juncture , one is not in any way clearly better than the other.  

Happy new year.  

I agree with much that you say. Agreed that a small school like St Bona has fewer resources from a financial standpoint than UB. And Bona utilizes it’s resources quite differently than UB regarding which sports teams it fields. But it must be pointed out that as of 2018, Schmidt’s salary was $831000+. Compare that with what Oats was offered and with Whitesell’s salary.

[dutchcountry7]

3 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

4 NCAA tournaments in 5 years. Case closed. You can argue kenpom all you nerds want. 4 NCAAs speaks the loudest.

I hate that metric. Doesn’t Texas Southern have Four in five years?  

[Kujo]

55 minutes ago, squire17 said:

I agree with much that you say. Agreed that a small school like St Bona has fewer resources from a financial standpoint than UB. And Bona utilizes it’s resources quite differently than UB regarding which sports teams it fields. But it must be pointed out that as of 2018, Schmidt’s salary was $831000+. Compare that with what Oats was offered and with Whitesell’s salary.

Schmidt’s is that now, but consider how much longer his tenure was than Oats by the time Oats received an offer for a similar amount.    Schmidt started off for about what Whitsell makes now.   It’s also worth noting that his last pay bump which was around $200k or so was wholly funded by an alumni donation channel.    So about 25% of his paycheck isn’t being drawn from the athletic budget.

i get that some of the old timers have a stuck in the 70s arrogance about them, believe me.   Such has actually caused a bit of a coup d’etat over on our board.

The truth is though most Bona fans under 50 are just grateful for how Schmidt has pulled Bona out of the depths of despair it was in when he arrived.   We had a nice thing going in the late 90s, early 2000’s before the pointless scandal set us back.   We were written off by most as past the point of return.  
 

To bring us back to being a team that all opponent’s needs to take seriously, in a highly competitive league, is a big deal to us.    Especially in the face of all the challenges we would have even if it weren’t for the scandal.   We’re an overpriced small catholic school in a poor location, with very little in the way of specialized or distinguished academics.  
 

in short, the deck is stacked against us to compete in our conference and so, when we are able to, we do so with a chip on our shoulder.   Not all that different than the chip UB has on its shoulder about all it’s successes not being taken seriously enough.  

UB and Bona fans can argue all we want.  For as much as we differ, we have a lot in common too.  

Edited January 1, 2020 by Kujo

[John]

21 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

I hate that metric. Doesn’t Texas Southern have Four in five years?  

I hate the metrics also because all the metrics/rankings are there to favor the power and so called higher conferences. Do agree Bona and UB are now closer to be evenly matched as far as player potential and athletic ability. A lot of the opinions are or can be slanted toward the teams based on the bias of who who are aligned with. We as fans keep looking for one metric after another to favor our team. I think the Bona fans will never consider UB as close to being an equal and will look at the A-10 a better conference than the MAC so Bona has to be better. Again nothing negative against other team’s fans because we will be always want our team to be better and support our team. Go Bulls!!!!!

[John]

12 minutes ago, Kujo said:

Schmidt’s is that now, but consider how much longer his tenure was than Oats by the time Oats received an offer for a similar amount.    Schmidt started off for about what Whitsell makes now.   It’s also worth noting that his last pay bump which was around $200k or so was wholly funded by an alumni donation channel.    So about 25% of his paycheck isn’t being drawn from the athletic budget.

i get that some of the old timers have a stuck in the 70s arrogance about them, believe me.   Such has actually caused a bit of a coup d’etat over on our board.

The truth is though most Bona fans under 50 are just grateful for how Schmidt has pulled Bona out of the depths of despair it was in when he arrived.   We had a nice thing going in the late 90s, early 2000’s before the pointless scandal set us back.   We were written off by most as past the point of return.  
 

To bring us back to being a team that all opponent’s needs to take seriously, in a highly competitive league, is a big deal to us.    Especially in the face of all the challenges we would have even if it weren’t for the scandal.   We’re an overpriced small catholic school in a poor location, with very little in the way of specialized or distinguished academics.  
 

in short, the deck is stacked against us to compete in our conference and so, when we are able to, we do so with a chip on our shoulder.   Not all that different than the chip UB has on its shoulder about all it’s successes not being taken seriously enough.  

UB and Bona fans can argue all we want.  For as much as we differ, we have a lot in common too.  

Salaries of coaches for the most part have gone up over the last number of years. Schmidt’s salary is based on the salaries of A-10 coaches so to keep him they probably had to give him a bump. The salaries of MAC coaches will probably never get to the amount of A-10 coaches. I do understand the salaries of a lot of coaches have to come from alumni donations. This is the reality of college sports today. Go Bulls!!!!

[dutchcountry7]

15 minutes ago, John said:

I hate the metrics also because all the metrics/rankings are there to favor the power and so called higher conferences. Do agree Bona and UB are now closer to be evenly matched as far as player potential and athletic ability. A lot of the opinions are or can be slanted toward the teams based on the bias of who who are aligned with. We as fans keep looking for one metric after another to favor our team. I think the Bona fans will never consider UB as close to being an equal and will look at the A-10 a better conference than the MAC so Bona has to be better. Again nothing negative against other team’s fans because we will be always want our team to be better and support our team. Go Bulls!!!!!

This is what head your head games are for.  Settle it on the court and the winning team has the bragging rights.

Bulls have won two in a row!

[skrabukes]

In the end, UB won this year and last year. I have no problem rooting for Bona when they aren't playing against the Bulls, although it's no priority of mine. Bona's success/fail doesn't impact UB at all, so there's no real point in arguing who is better/worse, who has a "good"/"bad" school, etc. I thoroughly enjoyed the game the other night, as it was a GREAT atmosphere for a basketball game, with high energy on the court and passionate fans on both sides filling the AA. I wish we could get more full houses like that (albeit containing nearly all Bulls fans) on a consistent basis, whether students are in session or not. Let's get fired up for MAC play this weekend!

[dutchcountry7]

6 hours ago, rma said:

Funny you say that.  Our softball team is terrible and we destroyed them last year, and split the series in 2013. We're 20-15 against them all time, despite our softball team playing in a lake and having zero resources.

Aren’t they really bad at every sport that isn’t basketball?  

[John]

46 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

In the end, UB won this year and last year. I have no problem rooting for Bona when they aren't playing against the Bulls, although it's no priority of mine. Bona's success/fail doesn't impact UB at all, so there's no real point in arguing who is better/worse, who has a "good"/"bad" school, etc. I thoroughly enjoyed the game the other night, as it was a GREAT atmosphere for a basketball game, with high energy on the court and passionate fans on both sides filling the AA. I wish we could get more full houses like that (albeit containing nearly all Bulls fans) on a consistent basis, whether students are in session or not. Let's get fired up for MAC play this weekend!

Do agree that overall the last few years there have been large, passionate crowds at our games and the atmosphere has been great. We have gone to games over the years at both Niagara and St. Bona and when it is full houses the atmosphere is great. Our family just likes to see exciting college games with great crowds and of course when UB wins it is even better. Just hope UB continues to promote all their upcoming games and the local media do their part. On another note the administration has to do a better job on game day setups. The Bona game was terrible at the concessions with long, long lines with many fans upset at wait times. No small kiosks or vendors selling pop, popcorn etc. No decent traffic control at the Millersport entrance to let a large number of cars in, no signal control. If UB truly wants to make this a destination for fans to want to come to games they need to do something. I think this was brought up last year but I don’t think anyone in admistration are looking around or listening to fans. Go Bulls!!!!!