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Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways


Kevin

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Just now, UB85 said:

I don’t agree with everything Tim says all the time, but he is a huge UB booster and fan. Personally I wish he “stick his nose”in more threads. In addition to his comments he has some great insights not to mention some access to information most fans do not. Tim was on this board long before many of the newer people came on board. There was a period of time where he didn’t comment at all. I don’t know why that was but I suspect it may have been some animosity/competition between Bull Run and UB Fan. We should welcome all comments especially from different viewpoints with the exception of hateful, vulgar etc type posts. But that is the job of the mods and not me. 

Not sure how those lines got there but that was unintentional on my part. 

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1 hour ago, UB92 said:

To get a bit back on track as we wait for Friday's game, I have two thoughts.

First, is it as simple as a "good guy, bad guy" thing?   Fill in your own analogy (I am trying to be sensitive to the impact of language as I age...)

From reading on here (and other sources), Whitesell was the guy who would come over after Oats would yell and calm things down with the player.  The "good guy", so to speak.  And, apparently, he was good at that and was valued by the players in that role.

But from what I have seen myself on TV (and from what has been implied here on the games I've missed), Whitesell is still (basically) the "good guy".  And, of course, the "good guy" schtick doesn't work by itself.  Viewed from this lens, it is hard to be optimistic for the rest of the season.

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Second, at some level, what we are seeing now is one of the two alternatives that could have happened and Alnutt had to make his choice.  What do I mean?  Well...clearly Alnutt had some concerns about Whitesell unless he would have named him right away (instead of, eventually, coming back to him).  So he had two choices:

1.  Hire someone outside the program and have a mass exodus of players transferring...and start again with a coach he was more optimistic about for the future.  In other words, they would have to rebuild.  This was going to be a tough road because the team was coming off a 30+ win season, was ranked (basically) the entire year, still had a good core, etc.  Did he really want to have that gutted in one year?   And when I say gutted, I mean:  "As a team, we were thinking they had to keep it in-house, or everyone would go their different ways," says senior guard Davonta Jordan, who estimates that half the roster would have transferred if an outside hire was made. "At that moment, everybody was trying to find out if we would stay." https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/sports/2019/10/21/whitesell-puts-imprint-on-ub-program-while-keeping-oats-influence

2.  Hire someone inside the program to keep the roster together and see if the talent level of the team, despite any concerns he may have about Whitesell as the head coach, wins the day during the season.  It was a wager and you can understand why Alnutt, considering where we were at the end of the season and the momentum of the program, would choose this option.  But that is why he (Alnutt) is in this position -- to make these hard decisions.

I don't know if anyone watches NASCAR, but sometimes if there is a late stage caution, a team will stay out on old tires to get track position to get stage points.  Sometimes it works splendidly, where a team in 12th place does not pit, goes to the front on the restart of a stage with a few laps left, is able to keep it together on the old tires and then finishes 3rd and gets a bunch of stage points.   When it works, it was a good strategy.

However...there are times when a team does not pit from 12th, goes to the front on the restart of a stage with a few laps left...and gets passed like they are almost standing still during the first lap...and finishes 18th on the stage.. (and still has to pit!).  This time the strategy failed miserably.

To bring the analogy together, I believe we are now in the midst of that second scenario happening.  And there is really nothing much to be done about it now.  It was a calculated risk, but it is unfolding in a way that always could happen, but were hopeful it didn't.  

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How is going to turn around?  Not sure.  It seems like the team is sliding on ice.  Cohesiveness is off and not necessarily playing as a team, especially on defense.  I'd like to say that these two games were a blip and they will turn it around on Friday (I am hopeful for that).  But...my life experience tells me that it may get worse before it gets better.  Teams got beat down by the Bulls the last few years and seeing a team like the Bulls (struggling with defense and not really playing for each other at the moment) is a great motivator for other squads.  Miami will certainly want to kick us when we are down.  Heck...we lost at Miami two years ago with a team that won 15 conference games.  The Miami team this year isn't very good, so maybe we can right the ship here...but they may be thinking the same thing.

 

This is a very well written and thought out post. It is always about the hire. Though Jordan said guys would go their separate ways it’s hard to put a whole lot of stock in that. For an example Evans reconsidered his commitment when Reggie was fired, but honored it when Hurley was named head man. 
 

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2 hours ago, BullsFan14 said:

I agree with you. I think those types of coaches who can inspire without screaming are absolutely fantastic. I am amazed when they can pull it off (because I don't know otherwise).

Maybe Whitesell's style could work at UB, I just think going from Bobby Hurley (high energy) to Nate Oats (high energy) to Whitesell (low energy) is a huge change of pace especially as you are trying to MAINTAIN success. We saw what success looks like at UB. We saw things that have never been accomplished here. Do we drastically change the recipe or do we modify it? In my mind, Whitesell is a drastic change to the recipe rather than a modification of the success that we had. 

Is this a perfect storm? Yes. When Whitesell was announced, I was worried. After the Dartmouth game, I started having conversations that Whitesell might not be the coach to continue the success. Now we are 0-2 in MAC play. I think, by definition, I have become a hater. If we bring home a MAC Championship within the next 2-3 years, I will gladly put my foot in my mouth. It will also make me reevaluate how I look at coaches.

Will I attend/watch every game? Yes. Will I still support the team? Yes. Can I be upset but still love a team? Yes. Will I still come back every year? Well, I am a Buffalo Bills fan so I think we know the answer to that question

This post made me think about something. Whitesell used to run a slower system but has changed to fast paced to keep the players happy and because we have had success with it. Maybe he really isn't comfortable with that system or at the very least isn't as good at coaching it due to his personality. His low energy method might be better for a slower paced system.

I am 95% sure that I am wrong, but still interesting.

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6 hours ago, UB85 said:

I don’t agree with everything Tim says all the time, but he is a huge UB booster and fan. Personally I wish he “stick his nose”in more threads. In addition to his comments he has some great insights not to mention some access to information most fans do not. Tim was on this board long before many of the newer people came on board. There was a period of time where he didn’t comment at all. I don’t know why that was but I suspect it may have been some animosity/competition between Bull Run and UB Fan. We should welcome all comments especially from different viewpoints with the exception of hateful, vulgar etc type posts. But that is the job of the mods and not me. 

"I don’t agree with everything Tim says all the time, but he is a huge UB booster and fan. Personally I wish he “stick his nose”in more threads. In addition to his comments he has some great insights not to mention some access to information most fans do not. Tim was on this board long before many of the newer people came on board. There was a period of time where he didn’t comment at all. I don’t know why that was but I suspect it may have been some animosity/competition between Bull Run and UB Fan. We should welcome all comments especially from different viewpoints with the exception of hateful, vulgar etc type posts. But that is the job of the mods and not me."

 

Just making it easier to read.

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2 hours ago, promotherobot said:

"I don’t agree with everything Tim says all the time, but he is a huge UB booster and fan. Personally I wish he “stick his nose”in more threads. In addition to his comments he has some great insights not to mention some access to information most fans do not. Tim was on this board long before many of the newer people came on board. There was a period of time where he didn’t comment at all. I don’t know why that was but I suspect it may have been some animosity/competition between Bull Run and UB Fan. We should welcome all comments especially from different viewpoints with the exception of hateful, vulgar etc type posts. But that is the job of the mods and not me."

 

Just making it easier to read.

My only problem with him is that he just seems to have a problem with anyone that disagrees with him in any way. 

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16 hours ago, 961819 said:

My only problem with him is that he just seems to have a problem with anyone that disagrees with him in any way. 

That’s why I have a hard time supporting BullRun. As important as they are, there’s other sources in the community who have surpassed it and get their information quicker and who are a far more reliable source.

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6 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

BIE and Kevin have both excused themselves from the thread let's try to limit discussion about them.

Are we still able to make "new group, new coach, give him time" arguments with a rough game tonight?

It depends how the game goes. If it's another 20 point ugly loss like the other day, it will be one giant mess in here. If they bounce back and win (as we're all hoping for) then the negativity will subside for a bit. If it's a close loss, surely the boo-birds will be back. I still have a hard time believing that this team could decline as rapidly as they have appeared to over the most parts of the MAC games, after showing some strong (and yes very weak) non-league games. I am going to continue to hope and believe that the first two MAC games (and Army/Dartmouth/Vandy) were the anomalies and not the norm. While my thoughts on how strong this team was during the summer has adjusted after having seen half a season of the team, I still believe that this team is very talented and can/should be contenders for a MAC regular & postseason crown. 

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2 hours ago, skrabukes said:

It depends how the game goes. If it's another 20 point ugly loss like the other day, it will be one giant mess in here. If they bounce back and win (as we're all hoping for) then the negativity will subside for a bit. If it's a close loss, surely the boo-birds will be back. I still have a hard time believing that this team could decline as rapidly as they have appeared to over the most parts of the MAC games, after showing some strong (and yes very weak) non-league games. I am going to continue to hope and believe that the first two MAC games (and Army/Dartmouth/Vandy) were the anomalies and not the norm. While my thoughts on how strong this team was during the summer has adjusted after having seen half a season of the team, I still believe that this team is very talented and can/should be contenders for a MAC regular & postseason crown. 

Good comments as always. I never bought the prevailing notion here that this team was going to challenge for a MAC title this year. On the other hand, I never thought they would not have a chance to do so. I also knew it was possible for the bottom to fall out. There were too many unknowns. Plus, there is always a challenge for an incoming staff to get its ducks in a row with recruits, staffing, responsibilities, etc. In this situation it was always going to be a challenge to replace so many great players from CJ to Carruthers. Thus far I haven't seen anyone stepping up to take  on those roles other than perhaps Mballa for Montell. If we don't see anyone step up and provide defensive intensity, leadership and offensive efficiency it could be a long year. And even if it is, it would be too soon to make a judgment on Jim or the prospects of the team under his guidance. He may need three years to really see what the the capabilities of the team are under his leadership.

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7 minutes ago, UB85 said:

He may need three years to really see what the the capabilities of the team are under his leadership.

This (very young) fanbase is fickle. 3 years of struggle would likely erase all of the momentum and cache that has developed since the Hurley hire. Community support was just arriving and I think we're already going to see it leave, after ONE PARTIAL SEASON OF STRUGGLES. 

Is this unfair to JW? Maybe.. probably, but it's the reality of where we are as a program IMO.

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Wasn't sure whether to put this in the Miami game thread or in here, I'll put it in here.

Kinda just browsing game-by-game analytics, not really a surprise, but the games in which UB has beaten pretty good teams - Harvard, Depaul, Bona, W&M - they have shot pretty well from 3.  In 4 of the losses - UConn, Vandy, Army, and Ball State - UB shot less than 22% from 3 in each of those games.  Shot 28% against Dartmouth and 27% against NIU.  The only game where they shot particularly poorly from 3 and won was against Towson.

It's not rocket science that hitting a bunch of 3s in a game is gonna help you win, whereas missing a bunch of 3s is gonna make you lose.  But the fact is that this is a below average 3 point shooting team (218th in the nation) who shoots an above average number of 3s (112th in the nation).  They only have 3 players shooting over 30% from 3 - Jordan, Graves, and Segu who are actually all shooting very well from 3, all over 35%.  It's the rest of the 3s that are killing the team.  I do like how Whitesell has continued the free-flowing uptempo offensive style, but I think it's time to stop giving some of these players the green light from 3. 

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23 minutes ago, UBlearns said:

Wasn't sure whether to put this in the Miami game thread or in here, I'll put it in here.

Kinda just browsing game-by-game analytics, not really a surprise, but the games in which UB has beaten pretty good teams - Harvard, Depaul, Bona, W&M - they have shot pretty well from 3.  In 4 of the losses - UConn, Vandy, Army, and Ball State - UB shot less than 22% from 3 in each of those games.  Shot 28% against Dartmouth and 27% against NIU.  The only game where they shot particularly poorly from 3 and won was against Towson.

It's not rocket science that hitting a bunch of 3s in a game is gonna help you win, whereas missing a bunch of 3s is gonna make you lose.  But the fact is that this is a below average 3 point shooting team (218th in the nation) who shoots an above average number of 3s (112th in the nation).  They only have 3 players shooting over 30% from 3 - Jordan, Graves, and Segu who are actually all shooting very well from 3, all over 35%.  It's the rest of the 3s that are killing the team.  I do like how Whitesell has continued the free-flowing uptempo offensive style, but I think it's time to stop giving some of these players the green light from 3. 

Williams is actually shooting above 30% as well, which is pretty shocking after he shot 10% last year. Who would have thought that he would be better from downtown than both Johnson and Grant.

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24 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

This (very young) fanbase is fickle. 3 years of struggle would likely erase all of the momentum and cache that has developed since the Hurley hire. Community support was just arriving and I think we're already going to see it leave, after ONE PARTIAL SEASON OF STRUGGLES. 

Is this unfair to JW? Maybe.. probably, but it's the reality of where we are as a program IMO.

I certainly agree. For a mid major especially, it takes very little to fall back into the pack and with that anonymity. The success over the last five years was tremendous for the program, the university and all of Buffalo and WNY.  And that's one reason why I remain upset that Alnut, the administration and UB's biggest boosters didn't put the full court press on Oats  retain him. (one day I might post some very lengthy comments on this but for know enough said) And as to your point even one year from being a top team can kill recruiting thereby making it difficult regain anything near the prominence the program enjoyed and brought over the last five years. Nevertheless, no one is going to fire Jim after a year or two. He needs the time and hopefully things turn for the better starting tonight. 

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1 minute ago, SGBull said:

Williams is actually shooting above 30% as well, which is pretty shocking after he shot 10% last year. Who would have thought that he would be better from downtown than both Johnson and Grant.

Williams issue is what he could do in high school is not there for him in college, yet. He is improving. But he has a long way to go. I love the fact that you see him and Segu practicing after games ans getting shots up. However, he is pretty weak on defense although his length causes problems for opponents and results in some blocked shots after opponents get by him off the dribble. He needs to refine his offensive game. It can't be shoot a 3 or drive to the basket with his left hand every time he touches the ball. He has to know when to make an extra pass. Overall I am happy with his progress.

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29 minutes ago, UBlearns said:

Wasn't sure whether to put this in the Miami game thread or in here, I'll put it in here.

Kinda just browsing game-by-game analytics, not really a surprise, but the games in which UB has beaten pretty good teams - Harvard, Depaul, Bona, W&M - they have shot pretty well from 3.  In 4 of the losses - UConn, Vandy, Army, and Ball State - UB shot less than 22% from 3 in each of those games.  Shot 28% against Dartmouth and 27% against NIU.  The only game where they shot particularly poorly from 3 and won was against Towson.

It's not rocket science that hitting a bunch of 3s in a game is gonna help you win, whereas missing a bunch of 3s is gonna make you lose.  But the fact is that this is a below average 3 point shooting team (218th in the nation) who shoots an above average number of 3s (112th in the nation).  They only have 3 players shooting over 30% from 3 - Jordan, Graves, and Segu who are actually all shooting very well from 3, all over 35%.  It's the rest of the 3s that are killing the team.  I do like how Whitesell has continued the free-flowing uptempo offensive style, but I think it's time to stop giving some of these players the green light from 3. 

Related to this comment, is there an opportunity to encourage certain players to change their mindset as to shot selection.  For example, Johnson, has not had it from 3 pt range this season.  His three point attempts are down last few games.  From 2 point range he has had mixed results.  I don't have his shot chart in front of me, but I wonder in the games where he shot better than 50% from 2 point range, what were the shots he took.  If for example, they are when he is being aggressive driving to the hoop. Perhaps a combination of that with an option of pass to an open teammate?  I am not a basketball expert - so I may be way off base here - but is there a way to find a way that he can be a better contributor (i.e. make lemonade from the lemons)?   Have to look for ways to play better as a team.

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So far this season Johnson has had an eFG% greater than 50% in 3 games: Harvard, William & Mary, and Army. His eFG% this year is 36.8%....He shot 37.9% from 3 two seasons ago! At some point it makes sense to give Segu more minutes - he has an eFG% of 50%. To me it’s a no brainer. If Will Regan can come off the bench for the good of the team, so can  Antwain Johnson.

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2 hours ago, SGBull said:

Williams is actually shooting above 30% as well, which is pretty shocking after he shot 10% last year. Who would have thought that he would be better from downtown than both Johnson and Grant.

Torvik says 29.4%, may be outdated?  I agree he is much more of a threat than last year, just need some more consistency.  The fact that he's better than those two shows that he's playing with a lot more confidence, I think.

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On 1/10/2020 at 8:14 AM, mikescherrer8 said:

That’s why I have a hard time supporting BullRun. As important as they are, there’s other sources in the community who have surpassed it and get their information quicker and who are a far more reliable source.

BR is not much different than this site... it takes a community (or village, if you will).  Everyone can contribute.  If you don't like their take, then post your own.

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On 1/9/2020 at 3:33 PM, 961819 said:

... he just seems to have a problem with anyone that disagrees with him in any way. 

That's fair of course, but I see it differently.  As I replied to someone else, I don't think Opinions are the issue.  When there are hard disagreements, I usually see facts supporting one point of view, and only opinions supporting the other.  Selfishly, I know he has come to understand some of my comments, even if they are different than the original train of thought.

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I’ve got no dog in this fight. But the screen name “Bull-in-Exile” is suggestive of a persona reluctant of any association with the trappings of the mundane. We have two diametrically opposing forces that are a souce of tension: Should I stay or should I go, if you will. The only possible antidote would be a flawless Bulls’ season from here on out. Go Bulls!

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1 hour ago, 961819 said:

It was a close, unconvincing win, over a bottom tier MAC team 

A win is a win, especially on the road. For years, all teams in the league struggled to win games on the road. The goal always was to win your home games and pick up a few on the road, which would lead to a 11-13 win league season, which puts them in the top 4. I'd gladly take that formula this year and it should be something that we're all hoping for.

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