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Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways


Kevin

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On 2/20/2020 at 9:16 AM, DocCas86 said:

One area where I think our expectations were likely higher than the actual performance thus far is the offensive output for Johnson, Jordan and Graves.  Here are the combined stats for the trio (MAC Conference only):

image.png.327ffe122df5e466d368d71e999fcbb9.png

As you can see, their shooting percentages are down.  I can think of three possible reasons:

  • Their shots this year are more contested as teams would have focused on CJ and Perk as first two options. 
  • The shot selection is not as good.  
  • They are having an off year as a group.

I believe it is likely a combination of these three factors..  I may need to compile similar stats for Mballa, Williams and Segu.  I believe the team has compensated for the trios output lagging with offensive rebounding and increased defensive intensity.

 

 

 

Very interesting numbers here. 

I didn't want people to think I went away right when the team started to play a bit better. They are 8-3 since I left, so maybe that's a good thing? 

Much criticism is still there for me but I am happy to see the team is playing defense for the first stretch all season. I need to see how they close the MAC East. They went 3-2 against them the first go around. 

 

 

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On 2/19/2020 at 10:55 PM, skrabukes said:

Anyone predicting 13-5 heading into the season was really thinking pretty positively. 13 wins in this league isn't easy. Just because we got 16 last year and Akron had 17 a few year's back, doesn't mean that 13 wins is a given for anyone. The talent levels are much closer than most think in the MAC. A 67% win percentage only gets you to 12 wins, and winning 2 out of every 3 is no small feat, especially the year after graduating 4 All-MAC players. Beyond Jordan and Graves getting solid minutes over their careers here, and AJ getting good minutes 2 years ago (and sitting out all last year), this team didn't have a lot of game play experience at the D-1 level. Mballa, Williams, Segu didn't play very much last year. Grant didn't play tons at Houston 2 years ago (again, sitting out all last year). Hardnett sat out all last year, Brock has sparingly played, Nickelberry from JUCO last year and Memphis beforehand, and Gallion is a newcomer. The players now have gained a great deal of experience over the course of the season and are gelling at the right time, getting their defensive games in order and growing with each other. If you want to knock the coaches, you're crazy. If you don't think that this team is far better now than earlier in the season, you're even crazier. While all teams have the goal of getting better throughout the season, it doesn't always happen. Injuries, fatigue, in-house drama, etc. occur hindering growth. This team is definitely looking like a team ready to roll as opposed to ready for the season to end.

Note the following:

  • I am posting less often than I have in the past.  I just don't have the time to comment on all things.  Every now and then I will comment.  Oftentimes it is something that, I feel, requires challenging.
  • In your first sentence, I hope you mean conference season (as opposed to entire season), since that is what I reported and that is what the pool utilized.  It was done after the final OOC game.
  • I am not really sure who you are speaking to in the second, third, fourth, etc. sentences.  I think those are all knowns.  
  • The 13 win prediction was based on people already viewing the ups-and-downs of the OOC season.  The fact that players would, hopefully, gel as the season progresses is baked into the prediction (and, of course, some of our opponents are, in theory, gelling as well as the season progresses).
  • I don't believe I knocked the coaches -- I was pointing out the expectations of a subset of fans.  
  • Your comment about "if you don't think that this team is far better now...", is a good example of a logical fallacy.  It could be multiple ones, but it is likely a straw man you have created.
  • The first game of our three game winning streak contained a second-half of basketball that was so atrocious it took me back at least ten years.  
  • On the season, we are shooting 43.5% from the field (whole season) and 42.5% from the field (conference).  In our last game, we shot 32.9% from the field.  I would use this piece of data to counteract your statement that UB is playing "far better now than earlier in the season"...without actually being crazy.  What they have done is stepped up on the defensive end, as someone else pointed out.

Like I said in the first bullet, I don't really have time to point-by-point unpack your statements.  If you respond to this, I am unlikely to respond...much because I don't have time, nor do I have the motivation to debate these silly comments you make.  Do better.

 

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1 hour ago, Kevin said:

Very interesting numbers here. 

I didn't want people to think I went away right when the team started to play a bit better. They are 8-3 since I left, so maybe that's a good thing? 

Much criticism is still there for me but I am happy to see the team is playing defense for the first stretch all season. I need to see how they close the MAC East. They went 3-2 against them the first go around.  Perhaps your view is the shot selection is the problem and team should be passing the ball more.

 

 

The shot selection - as a result of more passing is one potential area to explore to improve the offensive performance.   I am more of a numbers guy / basketball fan than a basketball tactician, so I am probably not the best source for suggestions.  My hope was show an area where performance may not be meeting expectation and encourage feedback for improvement.   I know you are passionate about the teams success, so this is possible opportunity for you and others to offer advice on how to take the team to next level.

I do feel credit is due to the team / coach for progress they have made on defense.  This has kept them in most MAC games.  It has also given them a shot to be near top of the MAC.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

The shot selection - as a result of more passing is one potential area to explore to improve the offensive performance.   I am more of a numbers guy / basketball fan than a basketball tactician, so I am probably not the best source for suggestions.  My hope was show an area where performance may not be meeting expectation and encourage feedback for improvement.   I know you are passionate about the teams success, so this is possible opportunity for you and others to offer advice on how to take the team to next level.

I do feel credit is due to the team / coach for progress they have made on defense.  This has kept them in most MAC games.  It has also given them a shot to be near top of the MAC.

 

 

To me on the offensive side of the ball is energy. 

When the team starts turning the ball over too much, they get out of the offense they normally run. The one that Hurley started, Oats perfected, and Whitesell kept. Too often I see the team standing around the three point line, with limited passing, waiting for Jordan/Graves to take a long range three, or for some reason, Johnson to put up a long two point prayer. It was happening too much in the 2nd half of the CMU game. 

When Jeenathan and Jordan get in a two man game, he is almost unstoppable. We've seen it at points this season. This then begins to open up long threes for Graves and company. 

What's been frustrating to me is the current lack of offensive production from the PG spot.

Over the last 6:

Segu has 4.6 PPG, 1.7 TPG, 2 FPG, 2 APG 

Jordan has 8.3 PPG, 3.5 TPG, 2.3 FPG, and 3.6 APG

If the Jordan and Segu combo pick it up for the final 5 and Cleveland, the team has a legit change to win it all.

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On 2/21/2020 at 4:45 PM, Kevin said:

To me on the offensive side of the ball is energy. 

When the team starts turning the ball over too much, they get out of the offense they normally run. The one that Hurley started, Oats perfected, and Whitesell kept. Too often I see the team standing around the three point line, with limited passing, waiting for Jordan/Graves to take a long range three, or for some reason, Johnson to put up a long two point prayer. It was happening too much in the 2nd half of the CMU game. 

When Jeenathan and Jordan get in a two man game, he is almost unstoppable. We've seen it at points this season. This then begins to open up long threes for Graves and company. 

What's been frustrating to me is the current lack of offensive production from the PG spot.

Over the last 6:

Segu has 4.6 PPG, 1.7 TPG, 2 FPG, 2 APG 

Jordan has 8.3 PPG, 3.5 TPG, 2.3 FPG, and 3.6 APG

If the Jordan and Segu combo pick it up for the final 5 and Cleveland, the team has a legit change to win it all.

Do agree. When Jordan is able to hit three’s and drive to the basket that helps the entire offensive flow. Segu has regressed and has been very inconsistent on both ends of the floor. He looks like he is forcing everything and his shot selection has not been good. happy to see Gallion getting some playing time that he should of been getting earlier in the year. Hope that it is not too little too late scenario. Go Bulls!!!!

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On 2/21/2020 at 1:49 PM, UB92 said:

Note the following:

  • I am posting less often than I have in the past.  I just don't have the time to comment on all things.  Every now and then I will comment.  Oftentimes it is something that, I feel, requires challenging.
  • In your first sentence, I hope you mean conference season (as opposed to entire season), since that is what I reported and that is what the pool utilized.  It was done after the final OOC game.
  • I am not really sure who you are speaking to in the second, third, fourth, etc. sentences.  I think those are all knowns.  
  • The 13 win prediction was based on people already viewing the ups-and-downs of the OOC season.  The fact that players would, hopefully, gel as the season progresses is baked into the prediction (and, of course, some of our opponents are, in theory, gelling as well as the season progresses).
  • I don't believe I knocked the coaches -- I was pointing out the expectations of a subset of fans.  
  • Your comment about "if you don't think that this team is far better now...", is a good example of a logical fallacy.  It could be multiple ones, but it is likely a straw man you have created.
  • The first game of our three game winning streak contained a second-half of basketball that was so atrocious it took me back at least ten years.  
  • On the season, we are shooting 43.5% from the field (whole season) and 42.5% from the field (conference).  In our last game, we shot 32.9% from the field.  I would use this piece of data to counteract your statement that UB is playing "far better now than earlier in the season"...without actually being crazy.  What they have done is stepped up on the defensive end, as someone else pointed out.

Like I said in the first bullet, I don't really have time to point-by-point unpack your statements.  If you respond to this, I am unlikely to respond...much because I don't have time, nor do I have the motivation to debate these silly comments you make.  Do better.

 

Your stats don’t include the second Kent game. I am going to include the stats from the second Kent game: 

1. Bulls shooting 50% in conference and all games from 2.

2. Bulls shooting 29.9% in conference and 31.5% for all games from 3.
 

3. Bulls eFG% is 48.2% in conference and 49.1% for all.

I agree with you. The Bulls have not shown that they have improved their shooting. They are wildly inconsistent. But overall they have been shooting well from 2, have improved from the foul line, and as you indicated have improved defensively - although they gave up 82 in regulation against Kent. The important thing is they are finding ways to win. They have to continue to do that because their margin of winning is razor thin. They can lose to anyone. They can beat anyone.

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6 minutes ago, Erie County said:

I see we have excuses already. 

The entire MAC played the same amount of days. UB got the extra rest from FRI-TUE.

NIU or BG seem to have no problems winning with the same set of schedules 

 

 

 

Ball State went 3-1 over their last 4 (including a loss to UB) and NIU was 2-2, so I'm not understanding how you're complaining about the factual tweet, or using it as an argument against UB. 

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2 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Perhaps because we, a team with what should be a high standard, started 0-18 and lost to an Ohio team that hadn't beat anybody with a winning record.... Yet this was seemingly because of a grueling schedule?

Teams do get beaten. Maybe we should call for the firing of the coach due to a loss. I mean, Coach K blew a 9 point lead in the final 2 minutes to a bad Wake Forest team last night. Stuff happens. Some of you act as though you don't realize that the opponents are trying to win as well, or that the teams are all relatively close in talent as a whole. It's on to the next game. They're 9-6, it's not as though they are 4-11 or something right now. 9-6 isn't ridiculous at all, at least not in my opinion, especially coming off of an amazing season and graduating 5 seniors, 4 of whom were top end.

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1 hour ago, Erie County said:

I see we have excuses already. 

The entire MAC played the same amount of days. UB got the extra rest from FRI-TUE.

NIU or BG seem to have no problems winning with the same set of schedules 

 

 

It's not an excuse.. Traveling in this league is hard and it takes a toll on the players. Yes Ball State played four games in the same time, but three of those four were at home.

 

For as good as last year's team was, we had two stretches in MAC play when we played three of four games on the road.  Guess what, we lost a road game both times during those stretches.

I don't understand the criticism of this tweet.  It comes from someone who is around the team at all times and travels with them.  They know more than anyone the difficulties of playing on the road so much in a short period of time.

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I understand the criticism, but it just frustrates me that for the four games in a row that we won, this thread is silent and then we lose one game and everyone jumps on Whitesell.

Other than Grant, nobody seems to ever blame the players... Maybe Graves shouldn't have shot 6-for-17 last night or maybe things are different in the second half if Jeenathan is healthy.. 

But then again I forget we would probably be 28-0 with any other head coach this season.

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1 hour ago, BullBoy said:

I understand the criticism, but it just frustrates me that for the four games in a row that we won, this thread is silent and then we lose one game and everyone jumps on Whitesell.

Other than Grant, nobody seems to ever blame the players... Maybe Graves shouldn't have shot 6-for-17 last night or maybe things are different in the second half if Jeenathan is healthy.. 

But then again I forget we would probably be 28-0 with any other head coach this season.

This is the big thing for me. I agree with everything you said so I will not repeat. But, people act like Whitesell is this horrible coach, they rarely give him credit for wins but always blame him for losses. If you look through this thread you would think that we are 10-18 not 18-10. People expect the team to be competing at the same level as last year, which is ridiculous. 

Our women's team is 5-9 in conference right now, but no one has made a thread calling out Coach Jack. 

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It isn't time for pitchforks or building statues.  It was a bad game, plain and simple.   Bad games happen.  Time to move on to next game and try to get the 'w'.  I am fine with feedback for improvement after a loss.  A true measure of Whitesell will take time and  will be based on how the team progresses next year.   As fans we want a return to the previous two years, where we aren't just thinking about winning the MAC.  It took Oats three year's to get there.

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Bad losses happen. Last years team was the best team to ever play for this school and we still went to a shitty NIU team and lost. That’s not explaining this one away though because of all the games remaining this season, this was one we should’ve won. Realistically we weren’t going to win out but for that loss to come against this Ohio team? Yikes 

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We weren’t going to win out. It’s that simple. We were due for a clunker. One thing about this team is we have responded after loses. So let’s see how we respond. At this point in the season coaching becomes huge bc you are seeing teams a 2nd and possibility 3rd time. Let’s see how everyone responds. Who steps up in what may be Jeenathan’s absence. Let’s hope that Ohio was just a clunker and not the beginning of a spiral. We have 3 games left to continue to grow and get better before it’s due or die. Everyone must step up. It’s that time of the year. 

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On 2/19/2020 at 7:55 PM, skrabukes said:

Anyone predicting 13-5 heading into the season was really thinking pretty positively. 13 wins in this league isn't easy. Just because we got 16 last year and Akron had 17 a few year's back, doesn't mean that 13 wins is a given for anyone. The talent levels are much closer than most think in the MAC. A 67% win percentage only gets you to 12 wins, and winning 2 out of every 3 is no small feat, especially the year after graduating 4 All-MAC players. Beyond Jordan and Graves getting solid minutes over their careers here, and AJ getting good minutes 2 years ago (and sitting out all last year), this team didn't have a lot of game play experience at the D-1 level. Mballa, Williams, Segu didn't play very much last year. Grant didn't play tons at Houston 2 years ago (again, sitting out all last year). Hardnett sat out all last year, Brock has sparingly played, Nickelberry from JUCO last year and Memphis beforehand, and Gallion is a newcomer. The players now have gained a great deal of experience over the course of the season and are gelling at the right time, getting their defensive games in order and growing with each other. If you want to knock the coaches, you're crazy. If you don't think that this team is far better now than earlier in the season, you're even crazier. While all teams have the goal of getting better throughout the season, it doesn't always happen. Injuries, fatigue, in-house drama, etc. occur hindering growth. This team is definitely looking like a team ready to roll as opposed to ready for the season to end.

Reasonable. But weren’t people saying pre season that this team would have more depth and potentially nearly as good as last years team. I know there were a lot of extremely optimistic pre season outlooks. Now we’ve seen these guys be world beaters to a low mid one would have to say the season has been a successful one. A few more wins would go a long long way. 

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4 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Another double digit home loss. Smoked by a team missing one of their top scorers and dominated by a single player.

excellent improvement!

Do we have more home MAC loses under Whitesell than the last three years combined? 
 

it’s hard to see the growth plan here 

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