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Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways


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9 minutes ago, rma said:

Disappointing to have the students, minus the band, cheer team, dazzlers, and first few rows of True Blue sit the entire game.

When @enrique14150, I, and our small crew were down there for the Bonnies game we made a ton of noise the entire time.  If any students are reading this, the aluminum steps inbetween the seat levels makes a ton of noise if you hit it with your foot.  I've been tempted to walk over to the student section to make noise before because it sounds like a library at times.

sigh, I know I'm gonna regret this

Minus the expletives, sexual harassment, and general distastefulness of the Bonnies student section, they're loud and they cheer for their team. We could really use that.  WE'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE. The blackout game vs Kent where Evans had the stepback 3, True Blue was standing up and filled both baselines and a section in the 300's. Later that year against Bowling Green I remember the students standing the whole time.  I think as recently as a couple years ago we had a game against Akron where the student section stood the entire time. 

I don't expect the Cameron Crazies. I don't expect people camping out for the best spots. I just wish there was more noise coming from the student section.

I go back to the mighty maniac days where we stood for forty minutes and yelled like crazy. So I’m right there with you, no buzz in Alumni this year. Tonight was a awful showing of attendance. 

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Just now, DooleyBull06 said:

I go back to the mighty maniac days where we stood for forty minutes and yelled like crazy. So I’m right there with you, no buzz in Alumni this year. Tonight was a awful showing of attendance. 

We had a number of spirit-deadening home losses this year that killed any momentum built from last year with the local general sports fan.

Asfar as the students, I'm 33 but feel like an old man when observing that this generation cares less about team sports, traditions, social events, and more about their own micro interests that can be accessed 24/7 on their phones. Someone mentioned the Crazies, even they have been torn into by Coach K this year for their antipathy. Times are changing.

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11 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

Where is the player development? We had opponents come to Alumni this year and drop huge numbers, who were relative nobodys recruiting-wise. Jackson for Akron, Coleman the freshman from Ball State, plenty of others. We get so excited about our fancy 3-star recruits, but the mid-major level is about developing guys who were shy a couple skills of the full package.

I'll give them Jeenathan's development. Very encouraging and good momentum for next year. But the rest? I'm not sure. The two senior transfers had to have regressed. Grave's offensive skill set is woefully small and forces him to be a volume scorer. Too much head down driving and never a post up (when LCJ was destroying us Graves couldn't have taken him in the post for a few quick fouls with 7 inches and 30 lbs on him?) And the free throw shooting all around was just miserable.

Plenty more to discuss, including guys not knowing who takes the ball out the first third of the season, an offense that runs a weave 80% of the time, inconsistent communication on defense, lack of visible spirit and shared purpose...but we've got all off-season for that! 😞

Completely agree on the in season player development point. Certain guys never developed over the course of the season. Which was frustrating bc we showed we could win. But to take that next step and win the conference you need in season development. Grant and Johnson never truly bought into team basketball, Graves proved he’s a great Robin, hardnett flatlined after getting named a starter, Nickleberry (I know he got hurt) was MIA, we could never find a go to play or player. No in season development. We won purely on talent which is the maddening part bc we have the talent to win the conference, just didn’t have the will and IQ. 

Bright side: we get one more year of Graves. Mball, Williams, Segu now become your younger leaders. Hardnett has to improve. Gallion showed me something. Hopefully the two incoming guards can shoot. I feel we could use either a veteran transfer PG or a 6-6/6-7 wing. We have the pieces. Gotta grow and develop in all facets from players to coach.

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19 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

Where is the player development? We had opponents come to Alumni this year and drop huge numbers, who were relative nobodys recruiting-wise. Jackson for Akron, Coleman the freshman from Ball State, plenty of others. We get so excited about our fancy 3-star recruits, but the mid-major level is about developing guys who were shy a couple skills of the full package.

I'll give them Jeenathan's development. Very encouraging and good momentum for next year. But the rest? I'm not sure. The two senior transfers had to have regressed. Grave's offensive skill set is woefully small and forces him to be a volume scorer. Too much head down driving and never a post up (when LCJ was destroying us Graves couldn't have taken him in the post for a few quick fouls with 7 inches and 30 lbs on him?) And the free throw shooting all around was just miserable.

Plenty more to discuss, including guys not knowing who takes the ball out the first third of the season, an offense that runs a weave 80% of the time, inconsistent communication on defense, lack of visible spirit and shared purpose...but we've got all off-season for that! 😞

Completely agree on the in season player development point. Certain guys never developed over the course of the season. Which was frustrating bc we showed we could win. But to take that next step and win the conference you need in season development. Grant and Johnson never truly bought into team basketball, Graves proved he’s a great Robin, hardnett flatlined after getting named a starter, Nickleberry (I know he got hurt) was MIA, we could never find a go to play or player. No in season development. We won purely on talent which is the maddening part bc we have the talent to win the conference, just didn’t have the will and IQ. 

Bright side: we get one more year of Graves. Mball, Williams, Segu now become your younger leaders. Hardnett has to improve. Gallion showed me something. Hopefully the two incoming guards can shoot. I feel we could use either a veteran transfer PG or a 6-6/6-7 wing. We have the pieces. Gotta grow and develop in all facets from players to coach.

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3 hours ago, UB05 said:

Early exit aside, the year was fine. It seems like he was too loyal to certain players, insisting on minutes for guys who just weren’t getting it done. Hopefully he learns and everyone comes back hungry next year. Jordan is a big loss, but Segu will be a junior and possibly ready for the next step 

I wholeheartedly disagree that the year was "fine".  Ten years ago, this would have been a fine season (with a disappointing ending).  We are (or were supposed to be) passed this point.  Maybe I have high expectations, but I wanted us to dominate the MAC...again.   This season was just a lot of confusing performances sprinkled in with some strong wins.  The talent level, overall, is just so much better than it was 10 years ago for UB.   We were supposed to tail off somewhat from last year -- that was expected.  But even accounting for that, the drop off was a little more than I expected. 

Regarding the coaching, the comments you made (i.e. "too loyal to his players", "minutes for guys who just weren't getting it done", "hopefully he learns", etc.) are things that you might say about a new coach early who is early in his career...not a guy who has been coaching as long as JW.   I may be wrong, but I don't feel he is the guy to get us back to the top.  But that's me.

 

I was looking for something about JW and I came across some quotes he made when he was let go by Loyola.  It was an interesting read.

https://www.espn.com/chicago/news/story?id=6216289

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, UB92 said:

I wholeheartedly disagree that the year was "fine".  Ten years ago, this would have been a fine season (with a disappointing ending).  We are (or were supposed to be) passed this point.  Maybe I have high expectations, but I wanted us to dominate the MAC...again.   This season was just a lot of confusing performances sprinkled in with some strong wins.  The talent level, overall, is just so much better than it was 10 years ago for UB.   We were supposed to tail off somewhat from last year -- that was expected.  But even accounting for that, the drop off was a little more than I expected. 

Regarding the coaching, the comments you made (i.e. "too loyal to his players", "minutes for guys who just weren't getting it done", "hopefully he learns", etc.) are things that you might say about a new coach early who is early in his career...not a guy who has been coaching as long as JW.   I may be wrong, but I don't feel he is the guy to get us back to the top.  But that's me.

 

I was looking for something about JW and I came across some quotes he made when he was let go by Loyola.  It was an interesting read.

https://www.espn.com/chicago/news/story?id=6216289

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, UB92 said:

I wholeheartedly disagree that the year was "fine".  Ten years ago, this would have been a fine season (with a disappointing ending).  We are (or were supposed to be) passed this point.  Maybe I have high expectations, but I wanted us to dominate the MAC...again.   This season was just a lot of confusing performances sprinkled in with some strong wins.  The talent level, overall, is just so much better than it was 10 years ago for UB.   We were supposed to tail off somewhat from last year -- that was expected.  But even accounting for that, the drop off was a little more than I expected. 

Regarding the coaching, the comments you made (i.e. "too loyal to his players", "minutes for guys who just weren't getting it done", "hopefully he learns", etc.) are things that you might say about a new coach early who is early in his career...not a guy who has been coaching as long as JW.   I may be wrong, but I don't feel he is the guy to get us back to the top.  But that's me.

 

I was looking for something about JW and I came across some quotes he made when he was let go by Loyola.  It was an interesting read.

https://www.espn.com/chicago/news/story?id=6216289

 

 

 

It’s possible, contrary to many posts here attesting to the athletic superiority of the Bulls, that UB was in fact deficient in talent this season. They certainly didn’t manhandle anyone. Every game seemed to come down to the last couple of minutes. They were middle of the pack - in a conference loaded with middle of the pack teams. They had no take charge guy. Whitesell was fired by Loyola because it felt he was a .500 guy - which he was.  And yet Whitesell’s successor at Loyola, Porter Moser, has had one stellar season there in nine seasons. Perhaps Loyola is satisfied with that. Sad, seeing as they won it all in 1963. Whitesell’s probably got one more year at Buffalo. Then? Is UB committed to top tier DI basketball? I doubt it.

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7 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I go back to the mighty maniac days where we stood for forty minutes and yelled like crazy. So I’m right there with you, no buzz in Alumni this year. Tonight was a awful showing of attendance. 

UB seems to be so apathetic.  The attendance and support is so weak for a large flagship.  
 

the students need to do better and the admin should be working to ensure it is better.  Even with the top 20 team it didn’t feel as great as you’d expect. 

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Did we improve in a single area that we struggled in early in the year?

- shot selection
- team defense
- flat footed iso ball
- low energy at home
- letting feature players go off
- defending the dribble
- free throw shooting
- turnovers (maybe for a stretch?)

Everyone kept saying we needed to figure these out. Welp.

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38 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

UB seems to be so apathetic.  The attendance and support is so weak for a large flagship.  
 

the students need to do better and the admin should be working to ensure it is better.  Even with the top 20 team it didn’t feel as great as you’d expect. 

I agree. It’s just disappointing. When we beat NIU back in what ‘04 we court stormed. I’m not advocating court storming but 3700 for a play in game when alumni can fill 6k plus...not what I want to see. And the 3700k didn’t make that much noise.

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4 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Did we improve in a single area that we struggled in early in the year?

- shot selection
- team defense
- flat footed iso ball
- low energy at home
- letting feature players go off
- defending the dribble
- free throw shooting
- turnovers (maybe for a stretch?)

Everyone kept saying we needed to figure these out. Welp.

Don’t disagree. All these points at times we corrected and others we struggled. Ultimately this team was too inconsistent literally minute to minute. For example last night we had at least two stretches where we went without a basket yet we didn’t turn the ball over. We played good defense to get back into the game then broke down on the final possession. We rebounded well all season but in the first half we got out worked. 

Its just disappointing bc this team was capable of more. I thought we at least could get to the semis. Definitely thought we would win last night.

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11 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Did we improve in a single area that we struggled in early in the year?

- shot selection
- team defense
- flat footed iso ball
- low energy at home
- letting feature players go off
- defending the dribble
- free throw shooting
- turnovers (maybe for a stretch?)

Everyone kept saying we needed to figure these out. Welp.

A lot of it was the same players over and over again. It’s possible that certain guys were just not good enough. If there’s one thing I’m critical of Whitesell for it’s the lineup choices throughout games. It took a 4th foul last night to get Johnson out of the game when he was obviously not having a good night. Not sure if jim wanted him to “fight through it” or thought we didn’t have a better option, but I feel that really hurt our chances 

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49 minutes ago, UB05 said:

A lot of it was the same players over and over again. It’s possible that certain guys were just not good enough. If there’s one thing I’m critical of Whitesell for it’s the lineup choices throughout games. It took a 4th foul last night to get Johnson out of the game when he was obviously not having a good night. Not sure if jim wanted him to “fight through it” or thought we didn’t have a better option, but I feel that really hurt our chances 

While I agree that the lineups can be rough at times, I do think it is mostly that we just don't have a better option. We had 5 "trustworthy" players this year Segu-Jordan-Graves-Williams-Mballa. As much as people would like it, you can't play that lineup for 40 mins per game. They will get tired and end up not performing as well.

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Just now, BrooklynBull said:

For all those complaining about attendance last night I have one word for you.  Coronavirus.

It would not have stopped me from going, but it may have stopped others, especially from the community.  With Spring Break next week students may have wanted to avoid large crowds.

I don’t blame people for not showing up, I blame students for not being loud.

I am glad that we had a full student section, and I would absolutely take that over an empty student section, but I wish we had the intimidating atmosphere we had before. I’d argue last year it was similar. Large crowd, not as loud as it could have been.

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6 minutes ago, rma said:

I don’t blame people for not showing up, I blame students for not being loud.

I am glad that we had a full student section, and I would absolutely take that over an empty student section, but I wish we had the intimidating atmosphere we had before. I’d argue last year it was similar. Large crowd, not as loud as it could have been.

From 2015 😞

11043276_10102286816064228_6705473399888

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39 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

From 2015 😞

11043276_10102286816064228_6705473399888

Oh my god that game was so much fun. I remember not being able to connect to the WiFi and not being able to hear when I was leaving.

It’s bad that I could tell which game that was before even looking at the scoreboard 😅

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Another potential criticism of whitesell, did he do enough to energize the student body or put an emphasis on getting students into the game

I remember when Hurley first came here he would harp on getting the students to the games as did oats. 

Never really heard anything from whitesell other than the obligatory stuff after a win at home

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2 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

Another potential criticism of whitesell, did he do enough to energize the student body or put an emphasis on getting students into the game

I remember when Hurley first came here he would harp on getting the students to the games as did oats. 

Never really heard anything from whitesell other than the obligatory stuff after a win at home

I'm more worried about him doing enough to energize... the team.

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Here's my post-mortem on the season (assuming there's no postseason tournaments in the cards) - 

If you told me in September that UB was gonna go 11-7 in conference and win some of their bigger non-conference games, I would've said the season would be a success.  If you told me that they were gonna lose to Dartmouth and Army, drop a bunch of MAC home games, and not make it to Cleveland, I would've said the season would be a total failure.  As with anything in life, the truth is somewhere inbetween.  My benchmarks for a successful season this year were (1) 22 wins and (2) a bye to Cleveland.  Clearly neither of those two benchmarks were met, though being the odd-man out on a 3-way 11-7 tie, I'll give them a little bit of credit for that....so I certainly can't call the season a success.

As others have indicated, UB has made a living these past 6 fantastic seasons off upperclassmen transfers/Jucos coming in and making immediate impacts.  Hamilton, Conner, Harris, Clark, Caruthers, McRae, the list goes on.  Simply put, UB just did not get that same level of immediate impact transfer this year from the upperclassmen (clearly they did get that impact from Mballa).  I struggle with how much of that I put on the coaching staff.  My expectations were lower than most here, but I certainly still expected them to be playing this coming weekend.  Was it a failure on the coaching staff to not get more out of some of these players?  Not putting them in the right position to succeed?  Or did we, the fans, simply expect too much and put unreasonable expectations on the players?  I don't think we'll ever know.

I'm not gonna get all doom and gloom here.  There were clearly bright spots this season.  Jeenathan Williams improved exponentially, and I can't wait to see how he continues to improve in the next two years.  Josh Mballa is clearly an elite MAC big with 2 more years to play.  There are some very good puzzle pieces here, and if no one leaves - knock on wood - there is definitely still potential for growth next year.

I won't call this season a failure, but it's a sign of how we the fans view the program now compared to the Reggie era.  20 wins is nice, 11-7 in conference is nice, wins over Depaul and Harvard are nice, but they're not good enough.  In my mind, the Whitesell floor has now been set.  I expect better next year.  Yes, they're losing maybe the best PG in program history, and some other contributors, but that's the nature of the game in college basketball.  There are young players on this team who will need to step up, and the coaches need to get them there. There's a lot of work to be done this summer, and I'm hoping they come out of the gates blazing in the fall.

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3 hours ago, Jeseph said:

Did we improve in a single area that we struggled in early in the year?

- shot selection
- team defense
- flat footed iso ball
- low energy at home
- letting feature players go off
- defending the dribble
- free throw shooting
- turnovers (maybe for a stretch?)

Everyone kept saying we needed to figure these out. Welp.

This is what bothers me about Whitesell. 

I understand we will have a down year. We aren't a Top 25 team anymore. We lost our players. I get that. 

After the Dartmouth game, I was already down on Whitesell. I branded myself as a hater in November. But I stayed positive. I thought if Jim can improve the team from that game to the last game, I would be very happy with the season and change my thoughts on Whitesell.

I didn't see it. I saw a guy that will lead us to .500 seasons in the future. Maybe I am wrong, some stat gurus on this site might be able to provide the objective facts that we have gotten better with time. I just didn't see it.

I don't see the 20 win season as his doing. I see that as the doing of players that knew how to win before.  

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3 hours ago, Jeseph said:

Did we improve in a single area that we struggled in early in the year?

- shot selection
- team defense
- flat footed iso ball
- low energy at home
- letting feature players go off
- defending the dribble
- free throw shooting
- turnovers (maybe for a stretch?)

Everyone kept saying we needed to figure these out. Welp.

How many of the questions above are potentially solved with the gradation class?

Shot selection - Johnson and Grant were major offenders of this

Team defense- grant and Johnson again, losing Jordan hurts a lot though

Flat footed iso ball - Johnson major offender, Williams is up there but he did improve as the year went on in my opinion, graves has his moments as well

Low energy at home - not solved

Letting feature players go off - not solved, but also should solve itself as the team becomes upper classman if they are as good as there 

Defending the dribble - not solved, worse with lose of Jordan

Free throw shooting - Jordan one of the worst offenders

Turnovers - was an issue in losses, which is true for every team in the country. Had good and bad stretches. But will in likely hood be worse with the loss of Jordan

So 3.5 to 4 solved in my opinion

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