Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[Kevin]

12 minutes ago, BullsFan14 said:

This is what bothers me about Whitesell. 

I understand we will have a down year. We aren't a Top 25 team anymore. We lost our players. I get that. 

After the Dartmouth game, I was already down on Whitesell. I branded myself as a hater in November. But I stayed positive. I thought if Jim can improve the team from that game to the last game, I would be very happy with the season and change my thoughts on Whitesell.

I didn't see it. I saw a guy that will lead us to .500 seasons in the future. Maybe I am wrong, some stat gurus on this site might be able to provide the objective facts that we have gotten better with time. I just didn't see it.

I don't see the 20 win season as his doing. I see that as the doing of players that knew how to win before.  

Well said.

there are also NO advanced stats that will show you are wrong. The Charts are like heart rate monitors. 

i posted my displeasure in January and got flamed for it. 

My favorite take by far is that a career .500 coach with 800 games needing a learning year. This is literally why he got the job. Selling the roster in tact, no rebuilding  time needed to keep it going. 

In that article from Chicago posted above, they alluded to his lack of recruiting. Uh Oh. He then claimed college basketball teams are generally .500. Yeah, maybe bad ones. 

I think Hunter was a good recruiter and could recruit to the tournament. Now they lost both of those things.

From top 15 in the nation to not even being in Cleveland and being in the bottom 4 with WMU. That’s not a learning year. 

meanwhile all 6 of the Ohio teams are in Cleveland with none from Michigan or NY. Really does make you think. 

[Jeseph]

10 minutes ago, Kevin said:

My favorite take by far is that a career .500 coach with 800 games needing a learning year. This is literally why he got the job. Selling the roster in tact, no rebuilding  time needed to keep it going.

Whitesell was not new to being HC. Whitesell was not new to this roster.

We saw no growth in his method of coaching the team. We saw no positive changes in how the roster was handled or responded.

It was only one year but this was an internal hire, there wasn't a typical learning curve.

[John]

9 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Whitesell was not new to being HC. Whitesell was not new to this roster.

We saw no growth in his method of coaching the team. We saw no positive changes in how the roster was handled or responded.

It was only one year but this was an internal hire, there wasn't a typical learning curve.

The one concern I had for most of the season and especially some of our home game losses was Whitesell not calling timeouts in the last 5-7 minutes of games. It appeared to us that some players were totally gassed especially Jordan and Graves who expended the most energy being our two mot important players. That is up to Whitesell and the other coaches to recognize that along with making the right player rotations. Can only hope Whitesell and staff can be more successful after reviewing the year. Go Bulls!!!!

[DooleyBull06]

Ask yourselves this question...is not being one of the 8! teams in Cleveland the new floor you want to have set? If you are ok with that then this season was a success. If that bothers, like it does me, then we didn’t meet our goal(s). 

Whitesell inherited really good talent. He kept them here while in transition and replaced an entire recruiting class. He has a runway to yield some results. The long term questions become will being out of the Cleveland spotlight derail all we built since Hurley? And how soon will that happen? Buffalo was the desired MAC spot, will one season out of Cleveland push us back into oblivion? For recruiting and fan interest we need to win in March. I want to be a contender for the MAC title every year. I’ve gotten spoiled. 

[JoeyRattlesnake]

Chiming in here.  I'm not privy to all the behind-the-scenes details, but it would be my opinion that we kept Whitesell to keep the roster intact (Williams, Graves, Segu) and sacrificed a lot of the equity Oats and Hurley had built.  Those two had built Buffalo into a desirable mid-major coaching position.  This was a place that, clearly, a coach could win at and spring board his career.  This hire will set us back.  And unless things change quickly (either Whitesell turns it around or a change is made) we will burn all of that progress to the ground and have to restart.

 

Maybe I'm dreaming here, but I had visions of growing this thing.  I truly felt that we could become, not a Gonzaga per se, but a VCU or a Wichita State.  Perennial conference chanps with an occasional down year.  The nation would know UB.  But now, I truly struggle to see the light at the end of the tunnel now.  I see another 18 - 22 win season for two more years and then being faced with the decision... is that good enough?  20 wins, some success in Cleveland, but likely not conference titles?  I know it's early and I'm likely over-reacting, but I see Whitesell being very Reggie-esque.  Again, 18 - 22 wins a year, an occasional trip to the championship in Cleveland but dreams of a run in the tournament or frankly, even getting there, have quickly faded.

 

Man... last year was fun.  What if had not run into Tech in that round of 32?  I guess we'll never know.

[Tee4three]

36 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Ask yourselves this question...is not being one of the 8! teams in Cleveland the new floor you want to have set? If you are ok with that then this season was a success. If that bothers, like it does me, then we didn’t meet our goal(s). 

Whitesell inherited really good talent. He kept them here while in transition and replaced an entire recruiting class. He has a runway to yield some results. The long term questions become will being out of the Cleveland spotlight derail all we built since Hurley? And how soon will that happen? Buffalo was the desired MAC spot, will one season out of Cleveland push us back into oblivion? For recruiting and fan interest we need to win in March. I want to be a contender for the MAC title every year. I’ve gotten spoiled. 

If what we built with Hurley and Oats could be destroyed in one 5th place season, did we really build anything?

Who they hire as the 3rd assistant will be very telling to how stable the ground whitesell stands on is

[UBlearns]

23 minutes ago, JoeyRattlesnake said:

Maybe I'm dreaming here, but I had visions of growing this thing.  I truly felt that we could become, not a Gonzaga per se, but a VCU or a Wichita State.  Perennial conference chanps with an occasional down year.  The nation would know UB. 

As much as I would love this, I just don't see UB having the financial wherewithal to pull this off.

Gregg Marshall at Wichita State makes $3.5 million a year - literally 10x what Jim Whitesell makes.  Last I could find on Mike Rhoades at VCU, his salary is at least $1.2 million.  It may not sound like a massive leap, but these programs are beyond where UB can go, without either significant buy-in from the state or major donors.  The state won't play favorites among the SUNY flagships, and while UB has donors like the Murchies, Wichita State has the Koch Brothers and Houston has Tilman Fertitta.  UB is a lot further from these programs than many people think, IMO.  

Even a small school like Bona, who puts its eggs in the men's basketball basket, can afford to pay Mark Schmidt more than double what UB pays Whitesell.  I don't know the ins-and-outs behind the scenes either, but I've never really gotten the sense that high-level D-1 athletics is an aspiration for the state or for the UB alumni base.  Sure, it'd be nice, but I don't think too many alums are losing sleep over this loss last night.  

Edited March 10, 2020 by UBlearns

[DooleyBull06]

7 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

If what we built with Hurley and Oats could be destroyed in one 5th place season, did we really build anything?

Who they hire as the 3rd assistant will be very telling to how stable the ground whitesell stands on is

I agree. But just look at fan turn out this entire season. Where were they? Will recruits want to come to UB and want to play for Whitesell if this is how it’s going to be? Mid major life is very volatile. I felt with this team we had some room for sustainability. Next season will be very crucial. This off season will be very crucial. To me it’s not been destroyed but it could be cracking.

[dutchcountry7]

4 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

For all those complaining about attendance last night I have one word for you.  Coronavirus.

It would not have stopped me from going, but it may have stopped others, especially from the community.  With Spring Break next week students may have wanted to avoid large crowds.

The excuses always amaze me. 

16,539 showed up to see the Sabres play last night...  Usually people at least try to say that everyone was watching the Sabres and that's why they didn't make it to Alumni.

People in NYC are making plans for the Wuhan Virus because there is an outbreak there but people in Amherst are going on about their days.

[Tee4three]

14 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I agree. But just look at fan turn out this entire season. Where were they? Will recruits want to come to UB and want to play for Whitesell if this is how it’s going to be? Mid major life is very volatile. I felt with this team we had some room for sustainability. Next season will be very crucial. This off season will be very crucial. To me it’s not been destroyed but it could be cracking.

Agree, its tough to keep the momentum going coach after coach

This season reminded me so much of oats second season here, up and down with a couple puzzling losses before puting together down the stretch. Both teams relied on seniors who were better off as number 2 guys on tournament teams and sophomores to win. The only difference is we won a 3 way tie break to get a 3 seed and into cleveland. Still lost our 1st game of conference tournament. 

[121Merrimac]

42 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

The excuses always amaze me. 

16,539 showed up to see the Sabres play last night...  Usually people at least try to say that everyone was watching the Sabres and that's why they didn't make it to Alumni.

People in NYC are making plans for the Wuhan Virus because there is an outbreak there but people in Amherst are going on about their days.

Tell me how you feel after someone in your office tests positive.  - Bulls fan in Seattle

[DooleyBull06]

53 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

The excuses always amaze me. 

16,539 showed up to see the Sabres play last night...  Usually people at least try to say that everyone was watching the Sabres and that's why they didn't make it to Alumni.

People in NYC are making plans for the Wuhan Virus because there is an outbreak there but people in Amherst are going on about their days.

Not to get political but it’s not called Wuhan Virus. Also most New Yorkers are going on about their lives as well. ~UB Alum and NYC native

[Jeseph]

Maybe people lost interest/faith due to our home record?

[BrooklynBull]

1 hour ago, JoeyRattlesnake said:

Chiming in here.  I'm not privy to all the behind-the-scenes details, but it would be my opinion that we kept Whitesell to keep the roster intact (Williams, Graves, Segu) and sacrificed a lot of the equity Oats and Hurley had built.  Those two had built Buffalo into a desirable mid-major coaching position.  This was a place that, clearly, a coach could win at and spring board his career.  This hire will set us back.  And unless things change quickly (either Whitesell turns it around or a change is made) we will burn all of that progress to the ground and have to restart.

 

Maybe I'm dreaming here, but I had visions of growing this thing.  I truly felt that we could become, not a Gonzaga per se, but a VCU or a Wichita State.  Perennial conference chanps with an occasional down year.  The nation would know UB.  But now, I truly struggle to see the light at the end of the tunnel now.  I see another 18 - 22 win season for two more years and then being faced with the decision... is that good enough?  20 wins, some success in Cleveland, but likely not conference titles?  I know it's early and I'm likely over-reacting, but I see Whitesell being very Reggie-esque.  Again, 18 - 22 wins a year, an occasional trip to the championship in Cleveland but dreams of a run in the tournament or frankly, even getting there, have quickly faded.

 

Man... last year was fun.  What if had not run into Tech in that round of 32?  I guess we'll never know.

So we win the MAC four out of five years and fail to make Cleveland one year.  Isn't that what you described as wanting?

[DooleyBull06]

10 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Maybe people lost interest/faith due to our home record?

Do we give them that much credit for keep track of our home record? Maybe it’s not new to them anymore? I’d accept low turn out if they were loud. But we got neither. 

Does anyone know if it was a separate gate for each game? Or single admission? Students still get in free right?

[SGBull]

I honestly think it is just that today's college age kids (especially those at a mid major) just don't care as much about seeing games in person, and definitely don't like to be loud if they do go.

We didn't have a ton of success at the end of the Witherspoon era but were still able to get the whole student section to chant "Stainbrook has a mangina". We once had DJ Cooper so mad that he ran over and stole a sign we made of him. Ah the good ol days.

[Jeseph]

32 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Do we give them that much credit for keep track of our home record? Maybe it’s not new to them anymore? I’d accept low turn out if they were loud. But we got neither. 

Does anyone know if it was a separate gate for each game? Or single admission? Students still get in free right?

I think people knew we used to have a home win streak. If you knew that and attended the Dartmouth/Army games would you shell out for Monday night Miami (OH) tickets?

[DooleyBull06]

22 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

I think people knew we used to have a home win streak. If you knew that and attended the Dartmouth/Army games would you shell out for Monday night Miami (OH) tickets?

I’m placing more of the blame on students. But if I were a regular attendee of games I would have made it a point to be there yesterday. 

[JoeyRattlesnake]

6 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

So we win the MAC four out of five years and fail to make Cleveland one year.  Isn't that what you described as wanting?

I see this year being the norm, not the exception, with Whitesell at the helm 

[rma]

10 hours ago, Tee4three said:

Valid point

A great student section (crowd too) can win you games though

STAINBOOK STAINBROOK

8 hours ago, JoeyRattlesnake said:

Man... last year was fun.  What if had not run into Tech in that round of 32?  I guess we'll never know.

Not sure how much of a role it played, but maybe we wouldn't have gotten Mballa? Brock plays 30 minutes a game, we don't redshirt Skogman? Maybe we win 15 games? 12?

6 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Does anyone know if it was a separate gate for each game? Or single admission? Students still get in free right?

Men's and women's were under the same ticket if that's what you're asking. Students free.

5 hours ago, SGBull said:

I honestly think it is just that today's college age kids (especially those at a mid major) just don't care as much about seeing games in person, and definitely don't like to be loud if they do go.

We didn't have a ton of success at the end of the Witherspoon era but were still able to get the whole student section to chant "Stainbrook has a mangina". We once had DJ Cooper so mad that he ran over and stole a sign we made of him. Ah the good ol days.

I think it's building culture. I was in the band. My freshman year 2011-12, we would stand until the first points of the game were scored, then sit down and go on our phones, especially for women's games. THOSE were a snooze fest. White comes in and sells a ton of media timeout promos, we get less playing time, we lose even more interest. Then the team starts winning. Coach Jack comes in and brings more of an explosion of energy than a spark of energy. Band starts standing the entire game for both games, even cheering on the women's team. Ask a current band member if they've ever sat for a basketball game, they'll say yes because you're required to sit in the NCAA tournament, but at Alumni Arena no.

What changed? We weren't told to stand. Somebody along the way must have realized that games were more fun when you are as into it as the team is. Somebody in True Blue needs to start making some noise. It used to be you couldn't even tell cheerleaders were there.

Maybe next year if I have enough of it I'll go down there and be obnoxious.

[dutchcountry7]

8 hours ago, 121Merrimac said:

Tell me how you feel after someone in your office tests positive.  - Bulls fan in Seattle

Has nothing to do with people in Buffalo who are still going about their lives and going to sporting events.  

The students alone could fill Alumni if they cared.  

[DooleyBull06]

3 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

The students alone could fill Alumni if they cared.  

Boom! That’s the point I’m making and I’m in agreement with you on. I don’t expect older people and kids to get loud and nuts. But I expect that of college kids. There was a time where a game was an event. You went for the fun and stayed for the game. You became a fan and came back for more. I also think we need more from a social media standpoint. That’s one way to hook 18 year olds.

[bmb2jn]

This was posted in the GDT when I mentioned Dayton.

 

Dayton is a basketball school and has been for decades and decades before UB. The A10 and the MWC have been ranked among the top 10 conferences for the most part over the past 20 years. The MAC has been ranked in the top 10 twice in the past 24 years.  I’m not sure what their coaches earn, but it probably dwarfs what UB pays Whitesell. In the last game at Dayton over 13000 fans were in attendance, at San Diego St there were over 10000. You can not remotely put UB in the same class as those two programs at this point. And should UB remain in the MAC, it will never achieve the status of either as far as basketball is concerned. By the way, there were 3700+ fans at Alumni Arena tonight to cheer on the women’s and men’s teams.

 

 

I've been hearing rumors of UB joining the AAC. Could that be what the doctor ordered? 

[squire17]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/josephnardone/2019/06/23/uconn-leaving-the-aac-hints-at-harsh-fallout-for-wayward-league/#51c629392152

[mikescherrer8]

8 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

The students alone could fill Alumni if they cared.  

Well they don’t and they probably never will because there’s no colleges sports culture here. Bills and Sabres country in WNY. Always has been and always will.