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BrooklynBull

MAC Financial Issues and Flexibility - COVID19 Fallout

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, UB92 said:

According to the news, the cutting of the three sports programs (and other cuts) resulted in a $4.4M savings.  Here is the information:

"The move affects 23 male and 9 female student-athletes. The elimination of these sports, along with salary reductions for select coaches, staff position eliminations, scholarship and operating expenditure reductions will total approximately $4.4 million."

I don't understand the math, actually.  Maybe someone can help me.

When I look at room and board, plus tuition and fees for Akron, if we assume the university paid for all of that, it is 32 student-athletes multiplied by $25,000.  That's $800,000 is "savings" though it isn't real money since it is money that is never collected.

At any rate, where does the other $3.6M come from?  Yes...they list the categories above (coaches, staff position eliminations, scholarships and operating expenditure reductions), but how does that make $3.6M?

Easy-to-understand and transparent university expenditures on athletics is non-existent.

There's no way that all 32 were on full scholarship. Also, I'd imagine that scholarships are worth more than $25k. Tennis and golf most likely on scholarship, xc kids were nowhere near full scholarships though (maybe a couple of scholarships total spread among members of the team and they still get their scholarships as they're on t & f).

Edited by skrabukes

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2 hours ago, skrabukes said:

There's no way that all 32 were on full scholarship. Also, I'd imagine that scholarships are worth more than $25k. Tennis and golf most likely on scholarship, xc kids were nowhere near full scholarships though (maybe a couple of scholarships total spread among members of the team and they still get their scholarships as they're on t & f).

If they weren't on full scholarship, then the numbers I gave were a max.  Also...why would scholarships be worth more than room/board/tuition/fees?  That's a cost of attendance.  How could they be worth more?

.

I'd be interested if someone with knowledge about athletics department finances could educate me on what I am missing in the $4.4M reduction

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Akron is also not honoring the scholarships for the rest of the S-A's academic career if they stay at Akron. That's pretty scummy. I remember looking a year or so after we cut sports and I think it was around half the soccer roster still stayed.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, UB92 said:

If they weren't on full scholarship, then the numbers I gave were a max.  Also...why would scholarships be worth more than room/board/tuition/fees?  That's a cost of attendance.  How could they be worth more?

.

I'd be interested if someone with knowledge about athletics department finances could educate me on what I am missing in the $4.4M reduction

It's quite unlikely that room/board/tuition/ fees is only $25k.  There aren't many colleges in the USA that only cost $25k. Maybe 25 years ago but not in 2020.

 

Edit, after actually looking it up, they are relatively close to 25k, even for out of state residents. No wonder they're broke. Private High schools around here cost close to that for just tuition.

Edited by skrabukes

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37 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

It's quite unlikely that room/board/tuition/ fees is only $25k.  There aren't many colleges in the USA that only cost $25k. Maybe 25 years ago but not in 2020.

 

Edit, after actually looking it up, they are relatively close to 25k, even for out of state residents. No wonder they're broke. Private High schools around here cost close to that for just tuition.

Look up what UB is. Even out of state, it's a hell of a deal. Except for the fees (and room/board if you do that on your own), UB's cost to attend is pretty much what it costs to attend any other SUNY.

I imagine that's also what helps cripple the school too.  Hard to compete academically with schools like Michigan and Penn State when they charge double the price/have twice the resources.

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3 hours ago, rma said:

Look up what UB is. Even out of state, it's a hell of a deal. Except for the fees (and room/board if you do that on your own), UB's cost to attend is pretty much what it costs to attend any other SUNY.

I imagine that's also what helps cripple the school too.  Hard to compete academically with schools like Michigan and Penn State when they charge double the price/have twice the resources.

That is because tuition is set by SUNY Central and the legislature and it is uniform across the entire system.  The variation in cost between SUNY units is fees and room and board.  However, that cost does no vary much across the state.

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBull said:

That is because tuition is set by SUNY Central and the legislature and it is uniform across the entire system.  The variation in cost between SUNY units is fees and room and board.  However, that cost does no vary much across the state.

Cost they charge for room and board does not vary much across the state. The market rate for housing varies a lot though. Any current UB students reading this: move off campus ASAP.

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Bowling Green discontinues baseball.

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2 hours ago, rma said:

Bowling Green discontinues baseball.

Hate to see that

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CMU discontinues men's track. Only Akron, Buffalo, EMU, and Kent State currently sponsor indoor track in the MAC now.

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1 minute ago, rma said:

CMU discontinues men's track. Only Akron, Buffalo, EMU, and Kent State currently sponsor indoor track in the MAC now.

Brutal 

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4 hours ago, skrabukes said:
4 hours ago, rma said:

CMU discontinues men's track. Only Akron, Buffalo, EMU, and Kent State currently sponsor indoor track in the MAC now.

Brutal 

I think this means that there is no MAC Men's Indoor Track Conference.  This will make it nearly impossible for any to qualify for the NCAA Indoor Championships.  The MAC will have to find other schools to be indoor track only or the remaining schools will need to affiliate elsewhere.

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41 minutes ago, BrooklynBull said:

I think this means that there is no MAC Men's Indoor Track Conference.  This will make it nearly impossible for any to qualify for the NCAA Indoor Championships.  The MAC will have to find other schools to be indoor track only or the remaining schools will need to affiliate elsewhere.

Again, brutal and embarrassing. 

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6 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

I think this means that there is no MAC Men's Indoor Track Conference.  This will make it nearly impossible for any to qualify for the NCAA Indoor Championships.  The MAC will have to find other schools to be indoor track only or the remaining schools will need to affiliate elsewhere.

So basically three options for UB, unless the MAC is going to entice William & Mary to travel all the way to Akron for a championship (unlikely):

Horizon League/MAAC/American East for one gender, one sport (dumb)

ECAC it (less dumb)

Drop and replace with another men's sport (you have my attention if it's soccer or swimming & diving)

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11 minutes ago, rma said:

 

Drop and replace with another men's sport (you have my attention if it's soccer or swimming & diving)

No, why would you drop it when it's athletes and coaches are encompassed within the XC and outdoor track & field? That would be very foolish and would essentially kill both of the other programs.

No more dropped sports at UB! We just dropped 4 a few years ago. There's NO reason to be dropping anything any further.

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24 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

No, why would you drop it when it's athletes and coaches are encompassed within the XC and outdoor track & field? That would be very foolish and would essentially kill both of the other programs.

Ask Akron, who dropped their men's cross country team but still has track & field. 

Or Central Michigan who did the opposite, following Toledo (2003), Bowling Green (2002), and Ohio (2007) as schools that sponsor men's cross country, but not track & field.

Or Miami, who hasn't sponsored men's indoor track since 1997, but continues to sponsor cross country and outdoor track & field.

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1 minute ago, rma said:

Ask Akron, who dropped their men's cross country team but still has track & field. 

Or Central Michigan who did the opposite, following Toledo (2003), Bowling Green (2002), and Ohio (2007) as schools that sponsor men's cross country, but not track & field.

Or Miami, who hasn't sponsored men's indoor track since 1997, but continues to sponsor cross country and outdoor track & field.

So evidently you believe that Akron, who had 2 Olympians in track & field (including one who ran XC for them and medaled in the last Olympics) is going to have a high quality team now without any distance runners? Do you believe that any quality distance runners will attend Akron knowing that they will miss out on their fall sport? Unlikely. Their coach is a very highly capable one, but will have a hard time achieving any scoring in events in the mid-distance and long distance races now. 

You feel that these are good choices by those schools? Those teams that do XC without track, how good are they in XC? Toledo, BG and Ohio are at the bottom of the league quite frequently.

These sports are generally lightly funded (on the men's side) and comprise themselves of rosters with a great number of walk-ons, paying full tuition to the school. Does cutting their sport add to the overall $$ of the university? I find it to be extremely unlikely. The sports at these schools offer a handful of track & field scholarships for a 40 man roster +/- (none of whom get special entrance treatment for acceptance into the school and many of whom pay full tuition less academic/need aid), don't have overly inflated coaching staff salaries, and infrequently (if ever) travel in manners other than a bus/van for day-trips/overnight, makes a minimal savings to a school when they're cut. Add in the disrespect to the alumni of those sports and future loss of donations by those alumni and future alumni of those sports as well. 

 

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2 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

You feel that these are good choices by those schools?

No, I don't think they are great decisions, but if the school is pushed one way or the other, they have to make a decision.

If what BB is saying about the MAC not being able to sponsor men's indoor T&F unless miraculously an affiliate decides to join, it puts UB in a tough place.  Do the men and women compete in separate conferences? How would that work when it comes to the championships? Do we just say fuck it and decide not to compete in the indoor NCAA Championships for men? 

9 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

These sports are generally lightly funded (on the men's side) and comprise themselves of rosters with a great number of walk-ons, paying full tuition to the school. Does cutting their sport add to the overall $$ of the university? I find it to be extremely unlikely. The sports at these schools offer a handful of track & field scholarships for a 40 man roster +/- (none of whom get special entrance treatment for acceptance into the school and many of whom pay full tuition less academic/need aid), don't have overly inflated coaching staff salaries, and infrequently (if ever) travel in manners other than a bus/van for day-trips/overnight, makes a minimal savings to a school when they're cut. Add in the disrespect to the alumni of those sports and future loss of donations by those alumni and future alumni of those sports as well. 

I feel the exact same way for the men's swimming and diving program. And I have no connection to that program.

 

Luckily for you and I, we don't have to deal with this shitshow, we'll just see the result of it.

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It gets worse for Central.  They are no longer eligible to be a FBS school, they only have 5 men's teams.  They are applying for a waiver.  They say if the waiver is denied they have other options.

They did not say what the other options are, but my guess it means more work for lawyers, which is always a good thing.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2020/05/19/a-new-reality-cmu-cuts-mens-indoor-outdoor-track-amid-covid-19-crisis/5219792002/

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5 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

They did not say what the other options are, but my guess it means more work for lawyers, which is always a good thing.

Probably either pay a bunch of lawyers hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight it and hope the NCAA gives in.

Or add some low cost bs sport and underfund it.

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ECU cuts men's swimming, among other sports, dropping the AAC to two members in men's swimming (SMU, Cincinnati). Have to imagine Cincinnati will join the MAC as an affiliate.

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23 minutes ago, rma said:

ECU cuts men's swimming, among other sports, dropping the AAC to two members in men's swimming (SMU, Cincinnati). Have to imagine Cincinnati will join the MAC as an affiliate.

out of control, so sad.

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5 hours ago, skrabukes said:

out of control, so sad.

The cutting of these low cost sports all over the MAC is just to do two things:

1.  Say that athletics is doing something to cut programs and then hide the real cuts to athletics in other ways (i.e. what Akron is doing).
2.  Which allows the MAC schools some cover to keep football at the FBS level at all costs.

All this does is just kick the can down the road a few years on the destruction of the G5 for football.  I really (really) thought this was the year, but it seems like that won't happen.  Ah...the fox is at the hen house...he will eventually get in.

 

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37 minutes ago, UB92 said:

The cutting of these low cost sports all over the MAC is just to do two things:

1.  Say that athletics is doing something to cut programs and then hide the real cuts to athletics in other ways (i.e. what Akron is doing).
2.  Which allows the MAC schools some cover to keep football at the FBS level at all costs.

All this does is just kick the can down the road a few years on the destruction of the G5 for football.  I really (really) thought this was the year, but it seems like that won't happen.  Ah...the fox is at the hen house...he will eventually get in.

 

Just is awful for the athletes of those sports. The schools that cut sports that save literally thousands of dollars while spending multiple millions on another is very sad. In the end, very little savings are being made in some of these cuts. Your points resonate strongly.

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