Continuation Plan

[C1ubP1fanaticM7]

Let me be clear. This is not being created to bash Whitesell, nor is it asking for him to be removed as head coach. Personally, I believe that he should be given the next two years, minimally.
 

Merely, I am not familiar with our assistant coaches and was hoping that some of you guys, who may have opinions on this, would be able to provide me who you feel, on the staff, would be best to continue the program if Whitesell were no longer Head Coach. As well as why you feel that individual is right for the job. 
 

Look forward to reading the responses! 

[DocCas86]

27 minutes ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

Let me be clear. This is not being created to bash Whitesell, nor is it asking for him to be removed as head coach. Personally, I believe that he should be given the next two years, minimally.
 

Merely, I am not familiar with our assistant coaches and was hoping that some of you guys, who may have opinions on this, would be able to provide me who you feel, on the staff, would be best to continue the program if Whitesell were no longer Head Coach. As well as why you feel that individual is right for the job. 
 

Look forward to reading the responses! 

Nice disclaimer up front!  🙂  That said I don't have any insight as to assistants.  Look forward to replies from those in the know.

[MuchMany]

No insights from me into who might replace our Head Coach after a strong road performance vs a national title contender and a tough road win vs a legit mid-major...

[UB92]

44 minutes ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

Let me be clear. This is not being created to bash Whitesell, nor is it asking for him to be removed as head coach. Personally, I believe that he should be given the next two years, minimally.
 

Merely, I am not familiar with our assistant coaches and was hoping that some of you guys, who may have opinions on this, would be able to provide me who you feel, on the staff, would be best to continue the program if Whitesell were no longer Head Coach. As well as why you feel that individual is right for the job. 
 

Look forward to reading the responses! 

I don't know who you are, but if you haven't followed this particular board recently (let's say the past year) in basketball, you are not allowed to have this perspective.  There are many people on the board, basketball in particular, who broker no dissension when it comes to anything negative about this coach.  Heck...all you had to do was follow the game thread yesterday and you see several people who delighted in pouncing later and after the victory on those who were critical of the team during the game and, especially, the coach.

Just follow the game thread (and this thread) and you can tell who they are.  It is a microcosm of society at the moment.  In fact, many people (like myself) who have contributed to this board for a long time have gone away (or are silent) since criticality is met with attack (or something derisive or sarcastic).  I, personally, have promised not to comment on the coach (or, basically, the basketball team) on this board until the current coach is no longer the coach.  This was back in March or so.  I don't consider this message to you to be about the coach or the team, just the dynamics of the board.

Obviously you sense something about the current board and the treatment of dissension since you posted a clear disclaimer, though (as I mentioned above) you are not allowed to have this perspective (at least from many posters...or much posters).

Your question is a legit one -- good ADs should have this stuff already figured out now, rather than what we went through a few years ago.  I suspect our AD has learned from this previous experience (after all, you should learn from experience) and has a plan.  Thus, getting inside his head (which is what you are trying to do here) is a reasonable question.

I do hope others on the board with knowledge about the staff can provide their perspectives on this interesting question.

[MuchMany]

10 hours ago, UB92 said:

I don't know who you are, but if you haven't followed this particular board recently (let's say the past year) in basketball, you are not allowed to have this perspective.  There are many people on the board, basketball in particular, who broker no dissension when it comes to anything negative about this coach.  Heck...all you had to do was follow the game thread yesterday and you see several people who delighted in pouncing later and after the victory on those who were critical of the team during the game and, especially, the coach.

Just follow the game thread (and this thread) and you can tell who they are.  It is a microcosm of society at the moment.  In fact, many people (like myself) who have contributed to this board for a long time have gone away (or are silent) since criticality is met with attack (or something derisive or sarcastic).  I, personally, have promised not to comment on the coach (or, basically, the basketball team) on this board until the current coach is no longer the coach.  This was back in March or so.  I don't consider this message to you to be about the coach or the team, just the dynamics of the board.

Obviously you sense something about the current board and the treatment of dissension since you posted a clear disclaimer, though (as I mentioned above) you are not allowed to have this perspective (at least from many posters...or much posters).

Your question is a legit one -- good ADs should have this stuff already figured out now, rather than what we went through a few years ago.  I suspect our AD has learned from this previous experience (after all, you should learn from experience) and has a plan.  Thus, getting inside his head (which is what you are trying to do here) is a reasonable question.

I do hope others on the board with knowledge about the staff can provide their perspectives on this interesting question.

Eh. You're obviously free to be as negative as you please. Others are free to disagree and encourage positivity til we're blue in the face. If this leads you to a vow of silence, so be it. I'll do my best to continue critiquing the ideas and not the people behind them. Admittedly, I do think it's premature to be discussing the HC's job security after falling one game short of NCAAs to a red hot Ohio last year and the solid start so far. This can be true at the same time as us trusting that Mark Alnutt is a professional who has a running list of potential replacements.

Since you brought it up, the only societal microcosm present is nervous hypercriticism over things we don't control. For example, I don't think our players, coaches, Alnutt, or anyone else whose livelihoods actually depend on these results were gnashing their teeth over the program's macro future when down 10 to North Texas. They were busy rallying behind their guys, believing in a comeback by a team everyone was super high on... 7 days ago. Sorry for asking "Does anyone have anything nice to say about our boys?" during our fantastic comeback, interrupting what must have been 20 negative comments in a row. It was one of our most exciting rallies in the past 5+ years and you'd hardly know it was happening reading the thread. That's the thing about American sports "fans" vs "supporters" in other countries - fans feel owed near perfection and revel in complaining, whereas supporters...support (with criticism of course.) They still sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" in Liverpool in a blowout loss.

Re: Whitesell, I'm no huge fan of his. Results have been average. In-game coaching is subpar. Last recruiting class feels strong. I'll wager that if we have a poor enough season to result in his ouster, his replacement won't come from within. Quarles seems to be coaching the offense in-game and far too often we're disorganized and fall into iso ball. Thorpe is a veteran deputy, like Whitesell was to Nate, but I seriously doubt we'd elevate that type again if this fails. Foley has some cred as a successful JUCO coach, but I have no reason to think he's ready. Any coaching change will have to seriously consider a potential catastrophic  loss of continuity facing a program that will already be turning over 6-8 guys, which would be the only reason to promote from within imo.

This is going to be a fun thread! Even more fun when you consider maybe we could replace Whitesell with Hodgson in 2022? 😂

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by MuchMany

[ChubbyHubby]

No Hodgson.  The dude was recruiting for Bama while he was still employed by UB.  Would a company hire someone back that left to go to another company, and took company assets with him.  This really is no different.  I also wonder what makes anyone think that Hodgson would be a good HC.  He was a good recruiter, I'll give him that, but no indication of anything more than that.  

[Jeseph]

3 hours ago, ChubbyHubby said:

He was a good recruiter, I'll give him that, but no indication of anything more than that.  

To be fair when we hired/promoted Whitesell he didn't even have that.

*ducks* 😂

[clodney]

11 hours ago, MuchMany said:

That's the thing about American sports "fans" vs "supporters" in other countries - fans feel owed near perfection and revel in complaining, whereas supporters...support (with criticism of course.) They still sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" in Liverpool in a blowout loss.

While I agree with this statement in some capacity, I don't think it's fair to suggest that a midmajor basketball program fighting to maintain some semblance of relevancy is comparable to one of the most stable and successful professional teams in the world. If Liverpool was ever being threatened with relegation I don't think their fans would be singing. And if we miss the tourney for the 3rd year in a row after making it 4 of the previous 5, I don't think we should be singing either.

[Tee4three]

In my opinion the continuation plan should be to continue to recruit freshman who are comfortable and okay with red shirting their first year of college basketball

If whitesell can develop a pipe line of older players thats a success. If an assistant coach is also developed to take over eventually that as well would be a boost

Sustained success needs continuation and development is the key

Also a coach that could provide continuation doesn't necessarily have to be on staff, it could be from the same pipe line we got Hurley/oats/whitesell

The game plan at ub basketball should be development, you develop the winning will follow 

[MuchMany]

11 hours ago, clodney said:

While I agree with this statement in some capacity, I don't think it's fair to suggest that a midmajor basketball program fighting to maintain some semblance of relevancy is comparable to one of the most stable and successful professional teams in the world. If Liverpool was ever being threatened with relegation I don't think their fans would be singing. And if we miss the tourney for the 3rd year in a row after making it 4 of the previous 5, I don't think we should be singing either.

Right, but this is my point. We're two games into a season where we're projected to be at the top of a very strong MAC. Yes, we're only performing at an average level so far. We went ice cold and fell one game short of NCAAs last year. We just pulled one of the best recruiting classes in program history. 2,000+ people came out on a rainy weeknight to watch us play Medaille.

That's hardly a program fighting to maintain relevance and hardly comparable to a Premiership side battling relegation. The season is eight days old and the doom and gloomers are already dominating game threads for games we end up winning as road underdogs. I just don't understand how that could be an enjoyable way to follow a team. What's the point of it all then? Piss and moan until the moment we're dancing in Cleveland? To each their own I guess.

[Jeseph]

11 hours ago, MuchMany said:

The season is eight days old and the doom and gloomers are already dominating game threads for games we end up winning as road underdogs. I just don't understand how that could be an enjoyable way to follow a team. What's the point of it all then? Piss and moan until the moment we're dancing in Cleveland? To each their own I guess.

It's not so much that I'm doom and gloom. It's that I want to see this team maintain a level of success that our athletics department ride.

Football is going to take time to rebuild. FLJ is likely on her way out.

It's early in the season yet with a number of new additions we're seeing the same core issues (offensive/defensive inconsistency and lack of depth) that we saw last year. Last year us "doom and gloomers" were told to give it time. We were told the team just needed to gel. Well, we saw a flash of improvement and then it reared it's ugly head in the MACC and we were out.

Sorry if I'm hesitant to "give it time"... again...

[DocCas86]

27 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

It's not so much that I'm doom and gloom. It's that I want to see this team maintain a level of success that our athletics department ride.

Football is going to take time to rebuild. FLJ is likely on her way out.

It's early in the season yet with a number of new additions we're seeing the same core issues (offensive/defensive inconsistency and lack of depth) that we saw last year. Last year us "doom and gloomers" were told to give it time. We were told the team just needed to gel. Well, we saw a flash of improvement and then it reared it's ugly head in the MACC and we were out.

Sorry if I'm hesitant to "give it time"... again...

Using Barttorvik 'Game Score' you will see that there tends to be improvement over the course of the season.  Here are the two years under Whitesell:

Looking at prior years one will often see this upward progression, which is possibly a combination of the team improving and the level of competition being a little lower.  So I am optimistic that the team will improve.  That said - so will other teams.  We will have to improve more to attain goals we have set, including contributions beyond starting 5.

Nothing has changed for my perspective as a result of first two games - not a large enough sample.  Ohio and UB are still likely the teams to beat. 

It comes down to how you define a successful season - is it a MACC win or nothing, or is it the collection of the season.  Quite frankly I would not want to be judged for my performance for the year on something that is 2/3rd likely not happening.

Repeating what I have provided in past comparison of team rank for last four coaches. 

With some modest improvement over our current rank of 77 to say 65, would be in top 3 rank for program history.  Would I be satisfied with a rank of 65 without an NCAA tourney appearance, as a fan - no way.  But I don't think you need to fire the coach in that instance.   That doesn't mean your critique and others are invalid, but I would say approach as 'feedback for improvement' rather than 'criticism'

One other point I have made in the past - Oats is a special coach - not a dime a dozen.  You are not going to just be able to find a coach the caliber of Oats every 3 to 4 years.  Look what he has done with Alabama:

[UB92]

2 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

Using Barttorvik 'Game Score' you will see that there tends to be improvement over the course of the season.  Here are the two years under Whitesell:

Looking at prior years one will often see this upward progression, which is possibly a combination of the team improving and the level of competition being a little lower.  So I am optimistic that the team will improve.  That said - so will other teams.  We will have to improve more to attain goals we have set, including contributions beyond starting 5.

Nothing has changed for my perspective as a result of first two games - not a large enough sample.  Ohio and UB are still likely the teams to beat. 

It comes down to how you define a successful season - is it a MACC win or nothing, or is it the collection of the season.  Quite frankly I would not want to be judged for my performance for the year on something that is 2/3rd likely not happening.

Repeating what I have provided in past comparison of team rank for last four coaches. 

With some modest improvement over our current rank of 77 to say 65, would be in top 3 rank for program history.  Would I be satisfied with a rank of 65 without an NCAA tourney appearance, as a fan - no way.  But I don't think you need to fire the coach in that instance.   That doesn't mean your critique and others are invalid, but I would say approach as 'feedback for improvement' rather than 'criticism'

One other point I have made in the past - Oats is a special coach - not a dime a dozen.  You are not going to just be able to find a coach the caliber of Oats every 3 to 4 years.  Look what he has done with Alabama:

 

I don't mean to speak for the original poster, but that poster explicitly stated that the desire was to speak about the continuation plan and said he would give Whitesell another two years.   Thus, how the heck did this turn quickly into another "Whitesell is a top 3 coach in UB history" or "it's only been two games and we one a game on the road against a team in the tournament last year"?

 

You posted an "Alabama Historic Rank by Coach" bar graph in a thread on whether the next UB men's basketball coach (and there will be one...whether it is tomorrow or 15 years from now) is one of the coaches on the current staff?

 

[DocCas86]

First off, the person who started this thread, thanked me for my post, so would think they didn't have a problem with it. 

Second I agree the conversation is off track from original question despite their disclaimer, which I complimented them for.  However, I am only guilty of following the flow of the thread.  You can read the thread and determine how it got off track and I will join you and encourage all to stick to the original query. 🙂

[clodney]

22 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

It comes down to how you define a successful season - is it a MACC win or nothing, or is it the collection of the season.  Quite frankly I would not want to be judged for my performance for the year on something that is 2/3rd likely not happening.

No problem with your post outside of this statement. The only thing that matters to a midmajor in basketball is getting to the tourney and considering our past 2 coaches made it 4 out of 5 years, I think it's pretty reasonable to expect our current coach to make it once in 3 years.

[UB05]

On 11/16/2021 at 1:15 PM, UB92 said:

I don't know who you are, but if you haven't followed this particular board recently (let's say the past year) in basketball, you are not allowed to have this perspective.  There are many people on the board, basketball in particular, who broker no dissension when it comes to anything negative about this coach.  Heck...all you had to do was follow the game thread yesterday and you see several people who delighted in pouncing later and after the victory on those who were critical of the team during the game and, especially, the coach.

Just follow the game thread (and this thread) and you can tell who they are.  It is a microcosm of society at the moment.  In fact, many people (like myself) who have contributed to this board for a long time have gone away (or are silent) since criticality is met with attack (or something derisive or sarcastic).  I, personally, have promised not to comment on the coach (or, basically, the basketball team) on this board until the current coach is no longer the coach.  This was back in March or so.  I don't consider this message to you to be about the coach or the team, just the dynamics of the board.

Obviously you sense something about the current board and the treatment of dissension since you posted a clear disclaimer, though (as I mentioned above) you are not allowed to have this perspective (at least from many posters...or much posters).

Your question is a legit one -- good ADs should have this stuff already figured out now, rather than what we went through a few years ago.  I suspect our AD has learned from this previous experience (after all, you should learn from experience) and has a plan.  Thus, getting inside his head (which is what you are trying to do here) is a reasonable question.

I do hope others on the board with knowledge about the staff can provide their perspectives on this interesting question.

Hahahahaha hahahahaha 

 

laying it on a little thick, aren’t we?

[DocCas86]

So back to this thread for a moment.  We all want the best team year in and year out.  It was mentioned on this board that sooner or later we will be getting a new coach.  What is the strategy that would be best for picking coaches to optimize success going forward?  Do we always look to promote from within?  If so, do we have someone on the current staff?  Do we do to some team what the P5s do to us - look for someone who has success at a level lower and pluck them for us?  How do you identify that potential?  Looking at Boals results at Stony Brook  (AE 31 -17) in three years vs Steve Pikiell was (AE 39-9) the three years prior the drop off is comparable from Oats to Whitesell in terms of record.  What would you say Boals had on his resume at Stony Brook that made him a good candidate and could predict his success?

[UB05]

24 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

So back to this thread for a moment.  We all want the best team year in and year out.  It was mentioned on this board that sooner or later we will be getting a new coach.  What is the strategy that would be best for picking coaches to optimize success going forward?  Do we always look to promote from within?  If so, do we have someone on the current staff?  Do we do to some team what the P5s do to us - look for someone who has success at a level lower and pluck them for us?  How do you identify that potential?  Looking at Boals results at Stony Brook  (AE 31 -17) in three years vs Steve Pikiell was (AE 39-9) the three years prior the drop off is comparable from Oats to Whitesell in terms of record.  What would you say Boals had on his resume at Stony Brook that made him a good candidate and could predict his success?

I think it’s highly dependent on how Whitesell does here. If we stay at or near the top of the MAC, make semi regular tournament appearances, and he ends up retiring or leaving, I would think promotion from within is absolutely on the table. If the program dips and he ends up getting let go, I think they look outside via search firm like they always do. I think all that is common sense, to be honest 

[DocCas86]

28 minutes ago, UB05 said:

I think it’s highly dependent on how Whitesell does here. If we stay at or near the top of the MAC, make semi regular tournament appearances, and he ends up retiring or leaving, I would think promotion from within is absolutely on the table. If the program dips and he ends up getting let go, I think they look outside via search firm like they always do. I think all that is common sense, to be honest 

Thank you for your input.  Based on this approach, a promotion from within was  reasonable when Oats left.  Some would argue that Whitesell was not the right choice.  Not trying to be provocative and I  discourage divergence into that topic, but seeking if there are other considerations about the potential choice or other steps the former coach could have done that would optimize chance of future success?

[121Merrimac]

1 hour ago, DocCas86 said:

… What would you say Boals had on his resume … that made him a good candidate… 

Graduating from Ohio

[C1ubP1fanaticM7]

 

30 minutes ago, UB05 said:

I think it’s highly dependent on how Whitesell does here. If we stay at or near the top of the MAC, make semi regular tournament appearances, and he ends up retiring or leaving, I would think promotion from within is absolutely on the table. If the program dips and he ends up getting let go, I think they look outside via search firm like they always do. I think all that is common sense, to be honest 

We’re currently going down the Hurley coaching tree. Hurley to Oats to Whitesell. The benefit of that is continuity of style and the retaining of players, which is ideal for a mid major.

If we have continued success, I believe that it makes sense to continue that continuity. Either with somebody on the staff or, I know this is an unpopular decision but my personal front runner, Hodgson.

Even if we were to fall down the CBB hierarchy, I still don’t think the options above are out the window. Reason being, I don’t believe that the issue is the style that we play. I believe that the issue would, in that situation, be coaching.

But let’s say that we don’t see a good option on the current staff or in Hodgson. Why did we choose Hurley?

It seems to me that although he didn’t have a coaching pedigree, he had a top tier basketball pedigree. He had a vision for playing a fun brand of basketball. And on top of that, and maybe most importantly, he coached with intensity and had the ability to connect with his players. I think those are the qualities that we need to look for in next coach. Regardless of why this coach is being hired. 

[ub2019]

54 minutes ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

 

We’re currently going down the Hurley coaching tree. Hurley to Oats to Whitesell. The benefit of that is continuity of style and the retaining of players, which is ideal for a mid major.

If we have continued success, I believe that it makes sense to continue that continuity. Either with somebody on the staff or, I know this is an unpopular decision but my personal front runner, Hodgson.

Even if we were to fall down the CBB hierarchy, I still don’t think the options above are out the window. Reason being, I don’t believe that the issue is the style that we play. I believe that the issue would, in that situation, be coaching.

But let’s say that we don’t see a good option on the current staff or in Hodgson. Why did we choose Hurley?

It seems to me that although he didn’t have a coaching pedigree, he had a top tier basketball pedigree. He had a vision for playing a fun brand of basketball. And on top of that, and maybe most importantly, he coached with intensity and had the ability to connect with his players. I think those are the qualities that we need to look for in next coach. Regardless of why this coach is being hired. 

I would think if Alnutt is still the AD there is no way Hodgson comes back here. 

[C1ubP1fanaticM7]

12 minutes ago, ub2019 said:

I would think if Alnutt is still the AD there is no way Hodgson comes back here. 

I would agree with you there

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

3 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

What would you say Boals had on his resume at Stony Brook that made him a good candidate and could predict his success?

He was a longtime assistant at Ohio State who graduated from Ohio. He knew the state well and had recruiting ties throughout the Midwest. Although his record was far from stellar at Stony Brook, OU looked at that as a trial run before giving Boals the job. He was discussed by many as a possible candidate when the Bobcats hired Jim Christian and Saul Phillips.

So essentially,

1. He had Ohio ties

2. Very good recruiter

3. Had head coaching experience

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

Recruiting is more important than coaching in this day and age of college basketball. Top level recruiters are hard to find but have to the ability to continually re-load their rosters which is a necessity with the transfer portal making a tremendous impact.

You can always surround yourself with a talented staff of coaches that can help teach the game and develop players but it helps when you have higher caliber players to begin with.

What’s baffling with Whitesell is that he’s brought in some highly touted recruits and transfers but the majority haven’t panned out besides Mballa. I would’ve thought with his coaching pedigree that we should’ve expected more by our newcomers in recent years.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger