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UB vs Howard - 2022 Paradise Jam - 11/19 - 3:15 p.m. EST - ESPN3


DocCas86

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1 hour ago, promotherobot said:

Who was the coach offered before JW? Could JW be replaced if MA could find an up-and-comer from a lower division, ala Lance Leupold? I would consider Mike McDonald from Daemen. He's local and has done a great job with that program.

I don't see how MM is an up and comer, no thanks

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13 hours ago, UB92 said:

I made a vow a while ago not to post about basketball until JW is no longer coach.  And, for the most part, I have only just read these basketball threads.  Every now and then, however, I break down and post.  
 

A few current thoughts…

There are some interesting players on the team this year.  Some seem to have MAC level (or beyond) talent   
 

JW is not going anywhere.  The Pres limited the outlay for a new coach and once our first choice didn’t take it, we got JW to coach on a low salary.  
 

JW has been head coach in more than 750 college games.   Not calling time out on that play is just awful.  Reggie level end-of-game awful.   
 

JW has had a hard time getting his players to compete against teams they are better than (like today).  He even admitted it a few years ago after a bad loss.  Today’s performance should not be a surprise.  Once again, the guy has been HC for more than 750 college games.   He sort of is who he is.   He isn’t a great in game coach, guys don’t seem to get better under his tutelage and he has a challenge motivating the team.   He is a nice guy, kept Oats’ team together and came cheap.   Blame the AD and President for this, though.  JW is who he is.  

Well said. 

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5 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

However, I do think you hit on one sad fact is that if they get rid of Whitesell, they will still have the low budget to contend with, so likely we find ourselves back in same place in four years.

If that’s the case, should we think about relegating to a lower conference? Seems like we won’t be competitive in the MAC unless we spend some more $$$. Maybe better off somewhere more akin to the old MCC, when we were there.

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15 hours ago, UB92 said:

A few current thoughts…

There are some interesting players on the team this year.  Some seem to have MAC level (or beyond) talent   
 

JW is not going anywhere.  The Pres limited the outlay for a new coach and once our first choice didn’t take it, we got JW to coach on a low salary.  
 

JW has been head coach in more than 750 college games.   Not calling time out on that play is just awful.  Reggie level end-of-game awful.   
 

JW has had a hard time getting his players to compete against teams they are better than (like today).  He even admitted it a few years ago after a bad loss.  Today’s performance should not be a surprise.  Once again, the guy has been HC for more than 750 college games.   He sort of is who he is.   He isn’t a great in game coach, guys don’t seem to get better under his tutelage and he has a challenge motivating the team.   He is a nice guy, kept Oats’ team together and came cheap.   Blame the AD and President for this, though.  JW is who he is.  

In agreement with a lot of what you stated. Will just add…JW is a great coach to have as part of the staff. Sort of the good cop to the “bad” cop that is the head coach. He might have been great to stabilize the program after Oats left. But it has become clear that he isn’t the one to lead the program forward into this ever changing college basketball landscape. It’s not an old man thing but dang it…it is. The game and college landscape may have passed him by.

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2 hours ago, yussi1870 said:

If that’s the case, should we think about relegating to a lower conference? Seems like we won’t be competitive in the MAC unless we spend some more $$$. Maybe better off somewhere more akin to the old MCC, when we were there.

UB has been ranked in MBB and football in the last 5 years, and S16 for WBB. We, by far, have the most MBB success over the last decade in the conference and arguably had the most WBB success in the same timeframe.

Downgrading non-football sports would mean go independent in football which will lose us more money. Nate Oats, the best MBB coach in recent history, was a high school teacher before he came here and was cheap on his first contract. Just because JW isn't working out doesn't mean that we can't get a good coach in, or more importantly that paying more money means you get a better coach. Just ask ASU, who is paying over $2 million for Bobby Hurley to go under .500 in conference and not win a NCAA tournament game in 6 opportunities.

Have a couple mediocre to bad years and people act like the sky is falling.

JW got UB to the MAC finals in 2021.

  • Bowling Green hasn't won the MAC auto bid since 1968
  • Northern Illinois hasn't made the finals since 1981
  • The last time a MAC West team other than WMU won the finals was 2003

Things don't look good, but they could be WAY worse.

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1 hour ago, rma said:

UB has been ranked in MBB and football in the last 5 years, and S16 for WBB. We, by far, have the most MBB success over the last decade in the conference and arguably had the most WBB success in the same timeframe.

Downgrading non-football sports would mean go independent in football which will lose us more money. Nate Oats, the best MBB coach in recent history, was a high school teacher before he came here and was cheap on his first contract. Just because JW isn't working out doesn't mean that we can't get a good coach in, or more importantly that paying more money means you get a better coach. Just ask ASU, who is paying over $2 million for Bobby Hurley to go under .500 in conference and not win a NCAA tournament game in 6 opportunities.

Have a couple mediocre to bad years and people act like the sky is falling.

JW got UB to the MAC finals in 2021.

  • Bowling Green hasn't won the MAC auto bid since 1968
  • Northern Illinois hasn't made the finals since 1981
  • The last time a MAC West team other than WMU won the finals was 2003

Things don't look good, but they could be WAY worse.

Good perspective. Thank you. Deep breath. 

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6 hours ago, rma said:

UB has been ranked in MBB and football in the last 5 years, and S16 for WBB. We, by far, have the most MBB success over the last decade in the conference and arguably had the most WBB success in the same timeframe.

Downgrading non-football sports would mean go independent in football which will lose us more money. Nate Oats, the best MBB coach in recent history, was a high school teacher before he came here and was cheap on his first contract. Just because JW isn't working out doesn't mean that we can't get a good coach in, or more importantly that paying more money means you get a better coach. Just ask ASU, who is paying over $2 million for Bobby Hurley to go under .500 in conference and not win a NCAA tournament game in 6 opportunities.

Have a couple mediocre to bad years and people act like the sky is falling.

JW got UB to the MAC finals in 2021.

  • Bowling Green hasn't won the MAC auto bid since 1968
  • Northern Illinois hasn't made the finals since 1981
  • The last time a MAC West team other than WMU won the finals was 2003

Things don't look good, but they could be WAY worse.

I am never a fan of "it could be worse, look at so and so" approach.  But I suspect that it may come across better in a personal conversation where tone/inflection matter, rather than in a board post.

However, I boldfaced the point you made above, which I think is sort of at the crux of my issue (and has always been).  I am on board with what you say, but the fault lies with the AD.  In my estimation, he was not as aware as he should have been about a backup plan (should Oats leave) and, apparently, did not have as much money available for a coach as he had thought.  If he did, I'd expect Lanier would have been our coach.   So when Lanier (my speculation) balked, he went the cheap route in order to try to keep the team together...hoping it would lead to a MAC Championship.  And it almost worked (the team made it to the finals in 2021), but now we have to live with the fact it didn't work. 

On the other hand, if the AD hires some up-and-coming coach for $300k instead of Whitesell, we likely lose more guys from the roster that Whitesell kept...and very likely aren't in the MAC Championship game in 2021.

He made a choice...it didn't work out...now we are stuck with Whitesell for a while till he is done.  That's sort of the long and short of it.  

I look forward to a thread in a year or two or three where we speculate on the next coach.  I do hope the players develop and I am wrong, but I don't think I will be.  I will always bleed blue, though, and root for our guys (and gals).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, UB92 said:

I am on board with what you say, but the fault lies with the AD.  In my estimation, he was not as aware as he should have been about a backup plan (should Oats leave) and, apparently, did not have as much money available for a coach as he had thought.  If he did, I'd expect Lanier would have been our coach.   So when Lanier (my speculation) balked, he went the cheap route in order to try to keep the team together...hoping it would lead to a MAC Championship.  And it almost worked (the team made it to the finals in 2021), but now we have to live with the fact it didn't work. 

I agree on Alnutt being caught off guard with Oats leaving. Ironically it seemed like he was better equipped for the Mo hire than replacing Oats when Leipold leaving was in the offseason. Alnutt had all the time in the world for WBB, and I think he made a decent hire based on her resume. TBD if Burke works out here.

It would be anybody's guess as to what would have happened if Lanier came here, but GSU hired him at roughly double the salary we're paying JW and now he's making $2 million a year at SMU.

And yes, we should be competing for MAC Championships every year. My last points were not saying that we shouldn't be, but that we've had an unusual period of success that most other MAC schools do not see. I would love to build on that success but demanding MAC titles every year is going to turn us into Nebraska football and not Boise State football. There's calls to fire Mo when we're on the cusp of bowl eligibility for the 7th time in D1 history (and only 3rd time not under Lance Leipold).

Edited by rma
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On 11/20/2022 at 4:19 PM, rma said:

Just because JW isn't working out doesn't mean that we can't get a good coach in, or more importantly that paying more money means you get a better coach.

We made a money decision to pay less. If we won’t pay more for a better coach but will pay less for a worse coach, we will see worse performance. We’re better off taking the risk on a higher paid coach than purposefully selecting a coach we know will be worse to save the $. Or let’s admit we’ll always pay for the lower performing coach and let’s relegate to a conference where that coach has a chance.

Edited by yussi1870
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