Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[dutchcountry7]

7 hours ago, UBminicre said:

Played well? What game were you watching? We played well for like 5-8 mins of the entire game. Fagan was the only player on the team that played well. Maybe segu. Williams came alive at end… but he played terrible for 75% of the game. 
 

We are not really good. We are prob an 80-100 ranked team which is a major bust considering the talent and experience on the team. We have the ability to be very good, but we have yet to show any signs in hitting that potential. We can, there is still time… but we better pick it out quickly. Good news is, we just really need to get hot right time during MAC tourney to make noise. 

Nonetheless, you can’t take out your anger on us for pointing out the obvious. No we don’t want to just bitch- we are spending our time on this forum just like you - so obviously we care. We just don’t wear rose color glasses that force us to say we did a great job today or so far this season. Cause we haven’t unless you expected extreme mediocrity.
 

 

 

That’s nonsense. 
 

This game was much like the Michigan game.  st Bona and Michigan aren’t too far apart on the court. But when we lost to Michigan it was all praise about how the team played so close with them on the road and took them to the wire.  Then at St Bona the same thing happens and the players were horrible and the coach needs to be fired.  
 

It’s insane. 

[UBminicre]

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

That’s nonsense. 
 

This game was much like the Michigan game.  st Bona and Michigan aren’t too far apart on the court. But when we lost to Michigan it was all praise about how the team played so close with them on the road and took them to the wire.  Then at St Bona the same thing happens and the players were horrible and the coach needs to be fired.  
 

It’s insane. 

No it wasn’t. First off Michigan is way better than Bonnies. Second, Bonnie’s were missing best player. Third, this is the 4th game that we have played with a total lack of discipline and consistency. We pulled out one of them luckily vs N Texas. Fourth, this is coming off a disappointing 20/21 year with Williams and Graves. 

We are mediocre. It’s really that simple. We should be able to win one of these tough games every once in a while, but we hardly ever do. Certainly not with Whitesell and this core squad. Also the showing by the team is piss poor, they play like shit for 75% of a game and then roar for 25%. That type of spotty play has got to be partially on coach, no? 

[Chet]

14 hours ago, BullBoy said:

You guys want to blame everyone but our players.  Jim Whitesell did not go 3-of-13 from three point range in the first half.  Players have to make shots... END OF STORY.

We lost on the road to a team in the national rankings in a hostile environment.  And honestly I am envious of their passion.  All our fans want to do is complain about the head coach instead of actually supporting our team.

Do you guys honestly even care about our program or do you just complain for the sake of complaining??

Of course players are responsible for their play. But this team has not played to their potential consistency this year. When Osun was out with foul trouble for the final six minutes of the 1st half, we ran zero sets to Mballa in the paint. Mballa was held scoreless. 

[mikescherrer8]

17 hours ago, BullBoy said:

You guys want to blame everyone but our players.  Jim Whitesell did not go 3-of-13 from three point range in the first half.  Players have to make shots... END OF STORY.

We lost on the road to a team in the national rankings in a hostile environment.  And honestly I am envious of their passion.  All our fans want to do is complain about the head coach instead of actually supporting our team.

Do you guys honestly even care about our program or do you just complain for the sake of complaining??

The players’ performance, preparation, game plan, and execution are a reflection of the coaching staff. That’s usually how it is in team sports, especially basketball. It’s been consistent. 
 

I’ll be the one to admit I’ve jumped to conclusions and maybe in the pre season I was expecting too much and was expecting this team to be close to the 2017 or the 2018 teams. 
 

But I will not apologize for holding this roster to a high standard and expecting way more than what has been provided thus far this season. I still think we are so much better than how we have played. And we need to make adjustments. 

[UBminicre]

39 minutes ago, Erie County said:

Why does the team underachieve by all advanced metrics? Why were they beaten on the gameplan yesterday? How did no one know to pop out on Adaway? It's the same play the ran all game, yet Jack/Skogman had no communication. It models the leader in charge. 

Why does the team play such inconsistent basketball? I saw they scored like 10 points in a 14 minute stretch yesterday. They are the third oldest team in basketball. I know we tried to use "new and young players" in defense prior. That's gone. What will we use next year when the team is just Curtis Jones/Skogman/Hardnett (if they stay) as the only players on the roster who get minutes?

Bonaventure without Lofton is an average team. 

Sad truth. Meanwhile there is still a handful of board members that tell us we can’t speak the truth. Instead we need to pretend this is enough. Same for the football team. How is this enough? 

[mikescherrer8]

15 minutes ago, UBminicre said:

Sad truth. Meanwhile there is still a handful of board members that tell us we can’t speak the truth. Instead we need to pretend this is enough. Same for the football team. How is this enough? 

I sat through Cohane and Witherspoon, and I refuse to go back to average. 

[SGBull]

I would be happy if UB found a new coach, I just don't see Alnutt doing it. If only we still had Danny White.

[MKBullsfan]

It’s all about the future and with Hurley and Oats at least we new what the future rosters would bring. This is the first time where we have no idea who will lead next year which should be a sign if we have the right coach. Also, the one big difference between Whitesell and Hurley/Oats is both Hurley/Oats had the potential to leave to bigger jobs, I’d don’t think Whitesell is that type of coach. He’s probably content with staying until retirement.

[MuchMany]

3 hours ago, UBminicre said:

Sad truth. Meanwhile there is still a handful of board members that tell us we can’t speak the truth. Instead we need to pretend this is enough. Same for the football team. How is this enough? 

The persecution complex is getting to be a bit much. No one is speaking "the truth," everyone is speaking their opinion. While it's far from perfect, 200 programs in the country would kill to have what we have. 

I wasn't thrilled with the Whitesell hire. He stabilized what could have been a disaster when Oats left, but it does feel like there's a ceiling now. I make plenty of critiques about the team and the coach. I find him to be lacking as a strategic/in-game coach and a generally uninspiring presence. I worry about the lack of skill development seen with a couple guys. I'm iffy on his staff. I'm probably the most critical here re: recruiting and roster construction. All in all, not a big fan really.

But there are some here whose contribution is damn near 100% negative. Never an interesting observation, hardly even a compliment on plays our guys make. That's their prerogative, but have you ever sat with someone like that at a live game? It's insufferable. Multiply that times a dozen people in a game thread and it's just a mess.

From the Bona thread, you'd have little idea that our preseason POTY was putting the team on his back almost pulling out a win. Hell, while that was happening, there was talk of his underwhelming career. Did you see the Bona fan who just posted a great compliment about Jeenathan? The kid could be starring at a P5 school this year with the new transfer rules, but he stayed local and true. He deserves to be rooted on, hard. If this is what our board looks like, what the hell does a Central Michigan board look like right now??

In the end, unless you're a big booster or a true insider, your standard doesn't really matter. Mark Alnutt is not reading this board. Your $300 season ticket purchase is not an effective hostage to get the recently extended coach fired. We're passive observers along for the ride with a good hoops program at a very good university. We've all been through the downs and ups. If incessant critique is what makes that ride enjoyable and worth spending time on, then God bless. My objections to that are 100% nothing personal, we're all UB fans in the end. 

[dutchcountry7]

Sometimes I think people here are really just St. Bona fans trying to stir up trouble. 
 

[Chet]

5 hours ago, SGBull said:

I would be happy if UB found a new coach, I just don't see Alnutt doing it. If only we still had Danny White.

Alnutt's seat is probably heating up too. 

[MKBullsfan]

Since we are talking about coaches on the hot seat, what about former coach Witherspoon now at Canisius. This guy hasn’t done anything and somehow year after year has a job. I thought he was average at best at UB and he continues to underachieve but no mention of hot seat for him. I guess our expectations at UB have risen and we demand more since we’ve won recently. Canisius on the other hand is stuck in mediocrity.

[Chet]

34 minutes ago, MKBullsfan said:

Since we are talking about coaches on the hot seat, what about former coach Witherspoon now at Canisius. This guy hasn’t done anything and somehow year after year has a job. I thought he was average at best at UB and he continues to underachieve but no mention of hot seat for him. I guess our expectations at UB have risen and we demand more since we’ve won recently. Canisius on the other hand is stuck in mediocrity.

Probably more of an issue with $$$$$. I feel bad for Reggie. He's never had the basketball budget at Buffalo. I think the basketball budget has at least doubled since his time. The budget at Canisius has to be so small.

[DaBulls99]

3 hours ago, Chet said:

Alnutt's seat is probably heating up too. 

Not in the slightest. He just got promoted a few months ago. 

[DooleyBull06]

I think we all need a reality check. Yes the Bona loss was a heartbreaker. Yes this team has been frustrating under Whitesell. But the reality of it was, an at large bid was very slim the minute we lost to Michigan. We shouldn’t have lost to SFA. And we still have an entire conference season grind ahead. My expectations for this season were MAC title…I’ve not lost hope or sight of that. The season is very young…no need to be calling for the coach’s job right now. And def no reason to give up on this season. Go Bulls!

[UBlearns]

9 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I think we all need a reality check. Yes the Bona loss was a heartbreaker. Yes this team has been frustrating under Whitesell. But the reality of it was, an at large bid was very slim the minute we lost to Michigan. We shouldn’t have lost to SFA. And we still have an entire conference season grind ahead. My expectations for this season were MAC title…I’ve not lost hope or sight of that. The season is very young…no need to be calling for the coach’s job right now. And def no reason to give up on this season. Go Bulls!

This is exactly it.  No shame in losing at Michigan or at Bona.  Two toughest teams on the schedule, both on the road, and played both tough.  Losing to SFA - and indirectly losing a chance to play Saint Louis - was killer, but teams will have an off day from time to time.

My expectations of Coach Whitesell have been the same since the day he was hired and inherited two of the best young recruits in program history and a rising star in Graves - make it back to the NCAAs within 3 years.  I expect UB to continue to be formidable team in MAC play for the rest of the season, and to be there in Cleveland at the end with a shot to win the conference.  All we can do is watch and support, and hope for the best.

[Jeseph]

2 hours ago, UBlearns said:

 

My expectations of Coach Whitesell have been the same since the day he was hired and inherited two of the best young recruits in program history and a rising star in Graves - make it back to the NCAAs within 3 years.

Same. So far he has lost to Miami in the first round (school first), gotten walloped by Ohio, and TBD this year.

Forgive me for being wary of this goal as we have seen some of the same short-comings already this season. I hope, as much as anyone, that we win this year. I just don't know if this staff gets it done...

[Tee4three]

For the first time I do feel like whitesell is attempting to adjust, I didn't feel that way at all his first 2 seasons

I want to see where/how he adjusts the defensive end of things and I want to see a continued team/unselfish offense

[DocCas86]

42 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

For the first time I do feel like whitesell is attempting to adjust, I didn't feel that way at all his first 2 seasons

I want to see where/how he adjusts the defensive end of things and I want to see a continued team/unselfish offense

I would like to see this as well - when things were at their best in Oats' last year - you had Perkins / Massinburg / Harris generally get their points, but it was Graves, Caruthers, Jordan and McCrae help carry the load and spread the defense.  You need to get offense from Skogman, Jack, Fagan (solid game against Bonnies), Jones and yes Brewton.   Brewton has been effective in games against weaker opponents - he needs to find his niche in those closely contested games.

Maybe I am wrong, but it seemed like in cold spell they were trying to attack rim and get Osunniyi in fould trouble.  Instead Osunniyi wound up blocking or altering shots leading to a scoring drought.  Perhaps there was an open man - like Mballa found near end of game for a 3.  

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

I think Jim Whitesell has had a disappointing tenure *so far* as UB head coach but still think he can fix the ship. What makes it incredibly hard to judge him is that he's off to one of the best starts by any coach in program history but replacing the best head coach Buffalo has ever had.

So the question is, do we judge him based on UB's historical precedent (which he'd be doing great) or by where the program was when he took over? (obvious regression) Then you have to factor in that he took over a re-building roster but had two of their highest recruits of all-time.

That's why opinions are all over the board. With what he inherited and the transfers he brought in, anything short of an NCAA Tournament appearance this year would have to be considered a disappointment based on his two predecessors instant success coaching the Bulls.

They don't even need to be a high seed. Just get in and be somewhat competitive and that'll buy him good will with the fanbase. The worst case scenario is if they fail to make the MAC Finals and he's forced to deal with another rebuilding project next year. Then, the momentum from Oats will officially be gone and they'll need to figure things out.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

Just now, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I think Jim Whitesell has had a disappointing tenure so far* as UB head coach. What makes it incredibly hard to judge him is that he's off to one of the best starts by any coach in program history but replacing the best head coach Buffalo has ever had.

So the question is, do we judge him based on UB's historical precedent (which he'd be doing great) or by where the program was when he took over (obvious regression). But then you have to factor in that he took over a re-building roster but also had two of their highest recruits of all-time.

That's why opinions are all over the board. With what he inherited and has had the opportunity to bring in, anything short of a NCAA Tournament appearance this year would have to be considered a disappointment based on his two predecessors instant success coaching the Bulls.

They don't even need to be a high seed. Just get in and be somewhat competitive and that'll buy him good will with the fanbase. The worst case scenario is if they fail to even make the MAC Finals and has to deal with another rebuilding project next year with underclassmen. Then, the momentum from Oats will officially be gone and they'll need to figure things out.

One other point, the UB administration is not getting rid of Whitesell anytime soon so most of this talk is pointless. He's going to get another year regardless of what happens this season. The soonest I could see him feeling any pressure is following the 2022-23 season if they're below .500 with their inexperienced roster.

[Jeseph]

36 minutes ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

and he's forced to deal with another rebuilding project next year. Then, the momentum from Oats will officially be gone and they'll need to figure things out.

Could this be true regardless of this season's outcome?

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

2 hours ago, Jeseph said:

Could this be true regardless of this season's outcome?

Most likely at this point but there’s still some hope. If they can make the tournament this year, that could potentially be enough of a boost to help recruiting wise moving forward.

[UBinMD]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:24 PM, Chet said:

Probably more of an issue with $$$$$. I feel bad for Reggie. He's never had the basketball budget at Buffalo. I think the basketball budget has at least doubled since his time. The budget at Canisius has to be so small.

It's all relative. Is Canisius' budget that much lower than MAAC teams? If not, then that argument does not hold water. If it's true, then maybe there is some credibility to it. If he isn't attracting MAAC level recruits to complete in their league, that is a problem. Don't know anything about Canisius' operations so I'll stop there.

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I think Jim Whitesell has had a disappointing tenure *so far* as UB head coach but still think he can fix the ship. What makes it incredibly hard to judge him is that he's off to one of the best starts by any coach in program history but replacing the best head coach Buffalo has ever had.

So the question is, do we judge him based on UB's historical precedent (which he'd be doing great) or by where the program was when he took over? (obvious regression) Then you have to factor in that he took over a re-building roster but had two of their highest recruits of all-time.

That's why opinions are all over the board. With what he inherited and the transfers he brought in, anything short of an NCAA Tournament appearance this year would have to be considered a disappointment based on his two predecessors instant success coaching the Bulls.

They don't even need to be a high seed. Just get in and be somewhat competitive and that'll buy him good will with the fanbase. The worst case scenario is if they fail to make the MAC Finals and he's forced to deal with another rebuilding project next year. Then, the momentum from Oats will officially be gone and they'll need to figure things out.

What isn't mentioned here is that the last two coaches have worked out and jumped to bigger jobs.  Every time there is a coaching change there is a lot of turmoil and typically a set back.  

People here are complaining about not Whitesell not being Oats.  But we can't afford an Oats.  So what do we expect?  Top-100 teams is a reasonable target for the program.  NCAA bids is reasonable.  But complaining that your coach isn't some other elite coach doesn't make any sense.  

The players wanted Whitesell hired.  This is the modern transfer era where players bolt every year to a new program.  They all stayed because he was their guy.  People like to talk about the young kid that brought the recruits in but these recruits were committed to Whitesell which is why they are still here after those other guys left.

Going outside and making a new hire was a risky proposition and not one guaranteed to pay off.  

We need stability and a dependably strong program.  That is what gets you midmajor respect and gets you better games.  When teams know that you will always be a top-100 team they will schedule you.  But if they think your coach is about to be hired away you're not getting games.

People forget that Oats couldn't land home/home series--not even with midmajors.   We had to play Southern Illinois in a in-season home/home because no one believed that Oats would be there the next year.  When they tried to schedule games all teams heard was "Come to Buffalo and play our top-20 team and then next year after I leave and all our players transfer out we will send a rebuilding sub 200 team to your place."  No one wanted to schedule that.

And we did not have that regression.  The teams that believed Oats was on his way out were right.  They were right not to schedule us.  The teams that believed the team would fall off were wrong because we had a mentor for the players that they wanted to play for.  They didn't bolt to other programs like you see at programs all around the country.

The program is in a good spot. 

It is asinine to me that people compare the previous coach to the current coach.  One is being paid 10x the other for a reason. 

I don't believe in gambling to try to find the rare next top coach and have him lead the program for five years until their are poaches away and the cycle starts again.  Hiring involves too much risk to want to gamble like that.  If we are a dependable top-100 program knocking on the door of the NCAA every year then we are establishing a program that when the time comes for a coaching change we will have a lot of talented applicants with an established fan base, history of good scheduling, and long track record of success.

I want the program to be in a great spot in 10 or 20 years.  I don't want us to be talking about the coaches that have left us and in another rebuild.