Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[dutchcountry7]

15 hours ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

It’s not a guarantee they would be worse *right now* if the whole team had departed three years ago. Nate Oats took over a depleted roster and look how he rebuilt the program.

Yes, I realize that Oats is a special, generational coach but whoever inherited the position was going to takeover a program with a ton of momentum behind it and an active recruiting pipeline with players eager to play for a top tier mid-major.

Hindsight, would you have taken a mediocre, retread head coach guaranteed to have a young talented roster or taken a risk on a highly motivated, talented young coach with unknowns regarding your team?

I’m not going to answer and will let everyone decide for themselves but it’s not as clear cut as some make it out to be. If they don’t make the NCAA Tournament this year, we’ll have the answer.

This is rose tinted glasses for sure.  
 

What program has reloaded in a situation like the one you described?  

Maybe VCU who pays coaches four times what UB does every time they have a coaching change?

Youre not seeing ModMajors make a smooth transition with an outside hire.  That doesn’t happen.

The programs that have had smooth transitions have always come from internal hires.  Which is how Oats was hired.  
 

Outside hires rarely work out for mid majors.  There is a reason so few midmajors have success despite there being so many coaches hired each year.  It’s a long shot to attract the diamond in the rough.  But when you have a successful program often a big reason for that is not merely who was the head coach but the composition of the staff which is much more elite than the peers.  

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

3 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This is rose tinted glasses for sure.  
 

What program has reloaded in a situation like the one you described?  

Maybe VCU who pays coaches four times what UB does every time they have a coaching change?

Youre not seeing ModMajors make a smooth transition with an outside hire.  That doesn’t happen.

The programs that have had smooth transitions have always come from internal hires.  Which is how Oats was hired.  
 

Outside hires rarely work out for mid majors.  There is a reason so few midmajors have success despite there being so many coaches hired each year.  It’s a long shot to attract the diamond in the rough.  But when you have a successful program often a big reason for that is not merely who was the head coach but the composition of the staff which is much more elite than the peers.  

I didn't give my personal opinion. I stated two potential scenarios and asked what fans would choose.

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

3 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Outside hires rarely work out for mid majors.  There is a reason so few midmajors have success despite there being so many coaches hired each year.  It’s a long shot to attract the diamond in the rough.  But when you have a successful program often a big reason for that is not merely who was the head coach but the composition of the staff which is much more elite than the peers.  

It was literally an outside hire that ignited the Buffalo program with Bobby Hurley. I get what you're saying and you're mostly correct but don't dismiss it as something that never happens or works out.

Hurley is the reason Oats came to UB in the first place which brought the success and internal pipeline. There was a time when many Bulls fans were outraged that they had fired Reggie Witherspoon after the success he had turning around Buffalo.

The key is not to become content with "who you are" and I think the big divide on this board is there's fans that are clamoring for more and others who are saying "be happy with what we are" or "it's impossible or too risky to take chances" to improve the UB program.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[UBinMD]

55 minutes ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

It was literally an outside hire that ignited the Buffalo program with Bobby Hurley. I get what you're saying and you're mostly correct but don't dismiss it as something that never happens or works out.

Hurley is the reason Oats came to UB in the first place which brought the success and internal pipeline. There was a time when many Bulls fans were outraged that they had fired Reggie Witherspoon after the success he had turning around Buffalo.

The key is not to become content with "who you are" and I think the big divide on this board is there's fans that are clamoring for more and others who are saying "be happy with what we are" or "it's impossible or too risky to take chances" to improve the UB program.

I hear what you are saying and agree. I am doing my best to support JW and the team, but the continual underperformance against subpar teams is extremely frustrating. I want us to be (and think we can be) a perennial NCAA Tournament Team. Basketball is the type of program that can become very successful Al’s Gonzaga. I hope our that hope for UB

[RecoveringHillbilly]

8 hours ago, UBminicre said:

Interesting tweet. Who’s in the way? I really hope she isn’t referring to fans..that would be absurd. The only person or persons in the way is our terrible coach and his underachieving team. 

After the shock of the loss, I actually found the game thread here, then reading tweets, really centered my thoughts. There is something quite calming about UB fandom's near consensus about a needing coaching change, the player's lack of motivation, questioning the extension directly at UB basketball's tweets. When we had the program rolling and everyone was high, it's great. And when we fall flat once again, we can all SEE the issues and express ourselves, and the chorus grows loud, that is a positive. I no longer need to fool myself about UB's NET, no longer laugh at seeing Bona get blown out by VaTech, now fully believing we could have over 10 loses this season.

We win the MAC..cool. But I'm setting myself up for the feeling like 2012 when we had MAC PoTY sWatt and McCrea yet went 0-3 vs the Bobcats.

[DocCas86]

6 hours ago, RecoveringHillbilly said:

After the shock of the loss, I actually found the game thread here, then reading tweets, really centered my thoughts. There is something quite calming about UB fandom's near consensus about a needing coaching change, the player's lack of motivation, questioning the extension directly at UB basketball's tweets. When we had the program rolling and everyone was high, it's great. And when we fall flat once again, we can all SEE the issues and express ourselves, and the chorus grows loud, that is a positive. I no longer need to fool myself about UB's NET, no longer laugh at seeing Bona get blown out by VaTech, now fully believing we could have over 10 loses this season.

We win the MAC..cool. But I'm setting myself up for the feeling like 2012 when we had MAC PoTY sWatt and McCrea yet went 0-3 vs the Bobcats.

While the loss to Canisius was as bad as it gets and does not foretell of better things to come.  I wonder why someone possibly losing their job is calming to you.  Maybe I am misreading your comments, Every loss during the Whitesell era and the ensuing barrage of comments did not comfort me. I have tried to remain hopeful and supportive of the team.  I have tried to look at the positives in the overall result and have dismissed poor performances as something that happens to most teams.  Positives such as the second year was better than his first and this year was supposed to be better still.  I will continue to root for the team and Whitesell until such time they part ways. I am hoping they use this game as a kick in the ass to focus them for the rest of the year.  Forgive me for being overly optimistic.

[squire17]

Barring a spate of injuries, or Covid throwing a curveball, there is a very good possibility that the Bulls overall record will be 13-4 against DI competition and 8-0 in the MAC heading into the game in Toledo. Five of the games in that stretch are against teams that are way down in the rankings: the 3 Michigans, N Illinois, and Ball St. The other games are all at home against UCI, Miami, BG, and Kent. Go Bulls!

[DocCas86]

4 minutes ago, squire17 said:

Barring a spate of injuries, or Covid throwing a curveball, there is a very good possibility that the Bulls overall record will be 13-4 against DI competition and 8-0 in the MAC heading into the game in Toledo. Five of the games in that stretch are against teams that are way down in the rankings: the 3 Michigans, N Illinois, and Ball St. The other games are all at home against UCI, Miami, BG, and Kent. Go Bulls!

If they learned anything from the Canisius ( and SFA) games.  Cant' win the game on paper.  Probably need to take care of one game at a time so they play from start to finish up to their capabilities.

[Ubbulls84]

1 hour ago, squire17 said:

Barring a spate of injuries, or Covid throwing a curveball, there is a very good possibility that the Bulls overall record will be 13-4 against DI competition and 8-0 in the MAC heading into the game in Toledo. Five of the games in that stretch are against teams that are way down in the rankings: the 3 Michigans, N Illinois, and Ball St. The other games are all at home against UCI, Miami, BG, and Kent. Go Bulls!

Appreciate the optimism but have you watched the team this year, 8-0 against any competition won’t happen, even the bottom of the MAC. They lack consistent effort, especially from some of the best players on the team. They will find a way to lose atleast one if not a few of those games. I’m trying to be optimistic myself even it’s been difficult to watch this team. Things will have to change if we’re going to win 3 games in a row in mac tourney because right now I’m not sure if this team has the discipline and effort to do so. 

[Jeseph]

Was this also a roster continuity decision?

[UBinMD]

36 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Was this also a roster continuity decision?

No

[yussi1870]

3 hours ago, Ubbulls84 said:

Appreciate the optimism but have you watched the team this year, 8-0 against any competition won’t happen, even the bottom of the MAC. They lack consistent effort, especially from some of the best players on the team. They will find a way to lose atleast one if not a few of those games. I’m trying to be optimistic myself even it’s been difficult to watch this team. Things will have to change if we’re going to win 3 games in a row in mac tourney because right now I’m not sure if this team has the discipline and effort to do so. 

Right because as soon as they win even one game the players start to think they’re heading to the NBA and it messes out their game. Coach ignores it. Then we lose.

[121Merrimac]

20 hours ago, RecoveringHillbilly said:

… There is something quite calming about UB fandom's near consensus about a needing coaching change, the player's lack of motivation, …

Now that nearly everyone agrees, hopefully these things won’t need to be repeated every minute of every game thread.  

I’ve never understood why UB fandom doesn’t heckle the other team more often, instead of their own. 

[Jeseph]

53 minutes ago, 121Merrimac said:

Now that nearly everyone agrees, hopefully these things won’t need to be repeated every minute of every game thread.  

I’ve never understood why UB fandom doesn’t heckle the other team more often, instead of their own. 

"YOU IDIOTS WERE 15 POINT DOGS WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP 12???"

[121Merrimac]

3 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

"YOU IDIOTS WERE 15 POINT DOGS WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP 12???"

Sad but true

edit: sigh, the days of ‘central miss again’ couldn’t live forever.  

Edited December 21, 2021 by 121Merrimac

[yussi1870]

2 hours ago, 121Merrimac said:

Now that nearly everyone agrees, hopefully these things won’t need to be repeated every minute of every game thread.  

I’ve never understood why UB fandom doesn’t heckle the other team more often, instead of their own. 

It’s because we weren’t heard during the Spoon era. Now we have to double down. Also, good to see so many caring these days. It used to be so few

[121Merrimac]

4 minutes ago, yussi1870 said:

It’s because we weren’t heard during the Spoon era. Now we have to double down. Also, good to see so many caring these days. It used to be so few

I’m from the Spoon era, and still don’t understand this comment.  

[yussi1870]

9 hours ago, 121Merrimac said:

I’m from the Spoon era, and still don’t understand this comment.  

Maybe you were one of the ones who supported Spoon to the end. There were so many on this board like that.

[UBlearns]

2 hours ago, yussi1870 said:

Maybe you were one of the ones who supported Spoon to the end. There were so many on this board like that.

I'll own it, I supported Spoon until the end.  I thought (and still do think) that he was a solid coach, a good role model, and all around good person to have running the basketball program.  He was the right person for where UB was at the time, a nascent program coming into its own in the D-1 basketball world.

In retrospect, it was obviously a good move to make the change.  I did not see the potential in UB basketball that Danny White & Co saw - clearly that's why they're professional athletics administrators and not Joe Schmoe fans like me.  I was wrong.  Still love Spoon though, and if UB's gotta get upset in horrific fashion like they did over the weekend, hey, at least it was a loss to him.

[Jeseph]

2 hours ago, yussi1870 said:

Maybe you were one of the ones who supported Spoon to the end. There were so many on this board like that.

I think that is part of my reason for being so vocal this time around. I was one of the supporters until very late in that era and boy did I have a wake up call when reflecting on the 'Spoon years (as well as some behind the scenes elements of his departure).

What did we do after settling for years? Made a splash in Hurley, which led to Oats. When Oats left we for some reason decided to "play it safe"? I frankly still don't understand how this option feels any safer but that's what others are calling it so sure...

I kept holding out hope for Reggie to fix some things, for some recruits to suddenly improve, for us to finally get over the hump and I defended Reggie pretty relentlessly because he was a good guy and had turned the program around. Jim Whitesell is a very good guy but he hasn't given me confidence that his ceiling is higher than what we are seeing.

[Jeseph]

9 minutes ago, Erie County said:

Am I also the only one that notices many players regress under Jim's iso ball and rebound strategy? 

Williams has been bad in 3 of the 4 losses this year, the team played it's best with him out of the lineup (WKU).  

I had this discussion with somebody as well. I am certainly not going to suggest that the team is better without Williams - I still think he's our clear best player. I do however think that Whitesell has shown that he doesn't now how to position/leverage his top talent.

[dutchcountry7]

On 12/19/2021 at 7:00 PM, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

It was literally an outside hire that ignited the Buffalo program with Bobby Hurley. I get what you're saying and you're mostly correct but don't dismiss it as something that never happens or works out.

Hurley is the reason Oats came to UB in the first place which brought the success and internal pipeline. There was a time when many Bulls fans were outraged that they had fired Reggie Witherspoon after the success he had turning around Buffalo.

The key is not to become content with "who you are" and I think the big divide on this board is there's fans that are clamoring for more and others who are saying "be happy with what we are" or "it's impossible or too risky to take chances" to improve the UB program.

Again, that's the point.

Landing a solid outside hire is rare.  Everyone plans for an improvement when they go outside and most programs do not land a great hire that is "better than should be at their program" which are the coaches that get hired away.

You're using the rare success as proof that UB does it.  But the only thing that is more rare than making a great "homerun" hire is doing it back to back.  

I know you think that we are a destination job and we thought so too.  We thought as an AAU member, state flagship, recent history of success, and being in a respected conference that we would be able to go outside and find a great hire.  That's why we engaged a firm.  And after the due diligence, there weren't options available that felt like they were a slam dunk or would provide the spark needed to win over the team.  It was clear it would be a rebuild if we went outside and it wouldn't be with a coach that would be expected to have a quick turnaround due to their name recognition.

This is why the program made the wise decision to go with an internal hire.  UB is a strong program and one of the best in the MAC--a strong conference.  I know we have had some losses that we don't want to see but that doesn't change the calculus.  We are in a better position as a result.

If the program is unable to reload in the next year or two then we would look for a change but the hire has been successful and it has helped make the program more attractive. 

The reality is that the job will be more desirable for the next hire than it was when Whitesell was hired.  It doesn't matter if that hire happens in two years or ten years.  It will be more desirable because the success will be through three separate head coaches.  And if it is in 10 years it would mean that the program continues to perform well and the staff reloads.

This would not have been true if we went outside, lost all the players, had a few subpar seasons while trying to rebuild and peaked as a middling MAC team before we parted ways with the outside hire.

The hire was absolutely the right move.  And the constant desire to live in the past and rehash the possibilities and dreams of making the perfect hire undermines the program.  

The "want to be more" refrain and acting like you need to make irrational risks to be great is a sign of someone that doesn't believe the program is actually good.  When you feel like the only way to succeed is to engage in risky behavior is a tell-tale sign that you don't actually believe the program is positioned to succeed on its own merits.  It is the admission that you're willing to take long shots that have a high probability of failure in hopes of hitting it big.  That isn't a strategy and it isn't how you build a program.

The athletic department made the investment.  They engaged an outside firm to put additional resources into the search to be able to turn up any and all possible candidates.  They made the investment to find the best option and put in an extensive search.  And after making that investment they made the wise decision to go with an internal hire.  

People like to act like that is a sign of a failure but it was a very wise decision and showed great strength by the athletic department.  The easy thing to do would be to make a hire from the outside pool of candidates.  There was a pressure to justify the spending on the search firm and this is something some here like to complain about.  But the sunk cost fallacy is a fallacy for a reason.  You're not merely paying to find an outside hire.  You're paying to have a better understanding of where your program sits in the marketplace and how your internal candidate compares to options you may not have known were options.  The fact that they engaged the search firm, interviewed candidates, discussed compensation, and weighted expected benefits (and risks) of hires and then decided to not use any of the candidates they were able to generate through the firm shows that the due diligence was performed properly and all of the factors were considered.  It would be easy to feel like you had to justify the search firm and their expense and by default had to settle for a candidate through that process.  But that is how a program that isn't willing to invest operates.

The risk assessment is how you win long term.  This is no different than business or investments.  The ones that can't accurately price in risk are the ones that aren't around long term.  UB needs to build for the long term.  There are many programs with successful coaches hired away that don't keep the success going.  The programs that keep the success going are the rare ones.  The ones that are gutted and rebuild are the norm.

[dutchcountry7]

On 12/19/2021 at 6:56 PM, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I didn't give my personal opinion. I stated two potential scenarios and asked what fans would choose.

Yeah, you said: "Hindsight, would you have taken a mediocre, retread head coach guaranteed to have a young talented roster or taken a risk on a highly motivated, talented young coach with unknowns regarding your team?"

But you don't give the name of the candidate.

You're living in a fantasy land.  You're saying: "While we are disappointed if the loss(es) we have, would you rather have this feeling or would you have rather have a coach from the blue ocean of options who will undoubtedly have all the virtues you want in a coach." 

You're weighing a known quantity to an imaginary figure. 

Name the specific coach that you believe we were able to hire who you wanted at the time.

 

[Jeseph]

2 minutes ago, Erie County said:

It's tough for me to make that conclusion too, however, Williams was a big reason they lost to Canisius. You can't take the that kind of volume of shots when you are cold. I thought i saw somewhere its one of the worst shooting performances in recent D1 history.

They do have their best win of the year with him out of the lineup. Hasn't Akron been better without Walton too? I think there is something to volume shooters with poor ball distribution. We've seen it with Brewton when he was with Coastal. 

And this is on coaching. Were we so scared of Canisius's talented roster that we couldn't afford to give William a break?

[Jeseph]

Why is everyone so sure our roster would have left?

We have been told that players like(d) Whitesell but it's also somehow a foregone conclusion that a new coach had no chance to arrive and earn buy-in?