Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[UBlearns]

On 7/23/2021 at 1:33 PM, UBlearns said:

My expectations are exactly the same as they were from day 1 of the Whitesell era.  Win the MAC and make the NCAAs within the next 3 years. 

I know UB won't move on from him because of the contract extension, but I don't see how this type of result is acceptable.  Expectations should be high, and he has failed to meet them.

[Jeseph]

Is 19 wins with this roster when it ends on a 3 game losing streak "good enough" for anybody here?

Honestly asking.

[UBminicre]

JW is terrible, everyone knows it. Complete underachievement. And our pipe is nearly non existing. We are in trouble. Oh well. 

[Kevin]

4 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Is 19 wins with this roster when it ends on a 3 game losing streak "good enough" for anybody here?

Honestly asking.

It shouldn't be. I think we care most about one thing -- going to the NCAA Tournament.

[SGBull]

3 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Is 19 wins with this roster when it ends on a 3 game losing streak "good enough" for anybody here?

Honestly asking.

Not for me. I was definitely one of the ones saying to give Whitesell 2-3 years during his first year when the team wasn't performing well, it was a young group with a lot of turnover. But this team was one of the oldest in the country and supposedly the most "talented" (by recruit rankings) that we have ever had. It is time to move on, not sure if Alnutt pulls the trigger though. 

[Chet]

Whitesell is not a bad coach, but the problem is he isn't good either. He is average to slightly above average and unfortunately he is following up the best coach in school history. I actually respected Whitesell's move to play the hot hand at the end of the game. That took a lot of guts.

[DooleyBull06]

4 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Is 19 wins with this roster when it ends on a 3 game losing streak "good enough" for anybody here?

Honestly asking.

Or the countless times a timeout is called and the team looks clueless coming out of said timeout. Whitesell just doesn’t seem like a good X and O guy. Perfect assistant but not a head man

[ub2019]

Just now, SGBull said:

Not for me. I was definitely one of the ones saying to give Whitesell 2-3 years during his first year when the team wasn't performing well, it was a young group with a lot of turnover. But this team was one of the oldest in the country and supposedly the most "talented" (by recruit rankings) that we have ever had. It is time to move on, not sure if Alnutt pulls the trigger though. 

If we pull the trigger on Whitesell, I don’t want Alnutt to be the person hiring the new HC.

[DooleyBull06]

My expectations for the Whitesell era was a MAC title within the 3 window of having mballa, Williams and Segu. Coming off our successful run under previous coaches…mission failed. Plain and simple. Now we go into a massive era of uncertainty. 

[Jeseph]

2 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Perfect assistant but not a head man

Yep. I've said this so many times 😕

[Tee4three]

24 minutes ago, Erie County said:

2-3 in Cleveland, two one and dones, no future.

This is UB basketball. Reggie 2.0

Don't know if this helps or hurts your argument but he is 2-2 in cleveland 

2-3 in the Mac tournament. The loss happened in Alumni 

[DooleyBull06]

He’s 0 for 3 in tournaments as the head coach. With players such as Mballa, Segu, Williams, Jordan and Graves. Yes COVID wiped out 2020 but we still lost to Miami, at home. That counts. Add in all the other losses to lesser teams, or last possession losses in which we failed to execute and that equals failure. We failed to meet expectations in the window of opportunity. 

[promotherobot]

29 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

He’s 0 for 3 in tournaments as the head coach. With players such as Mballa, Segu, Williams, Jordan and Graves. Yes COVID wiped out 2020 but we still lost to Miami, at home. That counts. Add in all the other losses to lesser teams, or last possession losses in which we failed to execute and that equals failure. We failed to meet expectations in the window of opportunity. 

When do the players get some blame?

[Jeseph]

2 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

When do the players get some blame?

Probably in practice.

[DooleyBull06]

13 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

When do the players get some blame?

Hey look…they deserve blame today too. Where was Mballa? He gets a lot of blame. But where’s the coaching that gets in his ear and says to him…stop shooting 3s. Get your ass in the paint and eat. How does Williams not touch the ball at all on that possession out of a timeout with the game tied? And on that possession Mballa gets a touch 3 feet beyond the 3 point line. And Brewton, who sparked the comeback no doubt, was the one taking an off balance prayer shot. Throughout the season we as fans, who have never played the game at that level, could see the issues with this team. Yet the coach never game played to hide our deficiencies or short comings. Often times it felt like we were trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Edited March 10, 2022 by DooleyBull06

[DooleyBull06]

My final thought. Ultimately Whitesell was doomed by the fact that he kept players from transferring when he got hired. By doing so there was a championship or bust expectation. Then by reaching the championship game last year and returning the core group of that team, expectations remained high. Had the program been gutted when he got the job who knows how his tenure turns out at this point. Now we get a look at what a rebuild under Whitesell will look like. Bc the last 3 years have been a win now and reload mode.

Edited March 11, 2022 by DooleyBull06

[UBlearns]

14 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

My final thought. Ultimately Whitesell was doomed by the fact that he kept players from transferring when he got hired. By doing so there was a championship or bust expectation. Then by reaching the championship game last year and returning the core group of that team, expectations remained high. Had the program been gutted when he got the job who knows how is tenure turns out at this point. Now we get a look at what a rebuild under Whitesell will look like. Bc the last 3 years have been a win now and retool mode.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but every coach's job is to win, and these players are some of the best to ever wear a UB uniform.  Jordan and Graves are two of the greats who were starters on the best teams UB has ever fielded, and Williams and Segu were the two highest-profile recruits in UB history.  All 4 of them are fantastic players who deserve all of the accolades they've received over the years.

Expectations were going to be high even if the inherited team fell apart, I think, just based on the heights of the previous seasons, and any coach is going to want the best players who put the team in a position to win titles.

[DooleyBull06]

Just now, UBlearns said:

I understand where you're coming from with this, but every coach's job is to win, and these players are some of the best to ever wear a UB uniform.  Jordan and Graves are two of the greats who were starters on the best teams UB has ever fielded, and Williams and Segu were the two highest-profile recruits in UB history.  All 4 of them are fantastic players who deserve all of the accolades they've received over the years.

Expectations were going to be high even if the inherited team fell apart, I think, just based on the heights of the previous seasons, and any coach is going to want the best players who put the team in a position to win titles.

I agree with the first half. Hence why I said it was championship or bust. 

But if he inherited a team that was gutted by the portal it would’ve been a “fresh start” with little to no expectations at its onset. In some ways we may see a version of that this off-season slash next season. I wanna win every game and make the big dance every year but gotta be realistic. Realistically this group had 3 years to get that done. Fail. Realistically next years group won’t be expected to compete for a title.

[skrabukes]

1 minute ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I agree with the first half. Hence why I said it was championship or bust. 

But if he inherited a team that was gutted by the portal it would’ve been a “fresh start” with little to no expectations at its onset. In some ways we may see a version of that this off-season slash next season. I wanna win every game and make the big dance every year but gotta be realistic. Realistically this group had 3 years to get that done. Fail. Realistically next years group won’t be expected to compete for a title.

In the times of the portal,  one can never know anymore.  It's 1 year increments only in my mind now.

[DooleyBull06]

1 minute ago, skrabukes said:

In the times of the portal,  one can never know anymore.  It's 1 year increments only in my mind now.

100%. Who knows…wouldn’t shock me if Mading and/or Blocker transfer. It’s a delicate thing recruiting and roster building. Bringing in the wrong transfer can derail things. One philosophy is to get kids out of high school. Another is to get ready made transfers. I will say this…we tried the ready made plug and play transfer philosophy…how’d that work out?

[UBminicre]

At the end of the day, our superstars mostly regressed under JW. Graves was a huge disappointment his final 2 years (albeit still very good). Same can be said for Williams. He put up the stats but didn’t lead the team when we needed him. Same for mbala, total regression. The only one that stayed consistent throughout or maybe got slightly better is segu.

This is a 100% reflection on JW, and he should pay the price. Just the way it is.

Now we go into the off-season with very few pieces any of us truly feel comfortable with. JW better have some tricks up his sleeve, otherwise we are looking at 2-3 years of potential bottom dwelling. And that’s after he had plenty of time to reload off of oats coat tail. 

Sad day for UB basketball. 

 

 

[MuchMany]

13 minutes ago, UBminicre said:

At the end of the day, our superstars mostly regressed under JW. Graves was a huge disappointment his final 2 years (albeit still very good). Same can be said for Williams. He put up the stats but didn’t lead the team when we needed him. Same for mbala, total regression. The only one that stayed consistent throughout or maybe got slightly better is segu.

This is a 100% reflection on JW, and he should pay the price. Just the way it is.

Now we go into the off-season with very few pieces any of us truly feel comfortable with. JW better have some tricks up his sleeve, otherwise we are looking at 2-3 years of potential bottom dwelling. And that’s after he had plenty of time to reload off of oats coat tail. 

Sad day for UB basketball. 

 

 

Jeenathan regressed?? That's just incorrect. Do you remember what he was like as a freshman and sophomore? He probably achieved 90% of his individual potential from when he committed here.

[Ubbulls84]

3 hours ago, MuchMany said:

Jeenathan regressed?? That's just incorrect. Do you remember what he was like as a freshman and sophomore? He probably achieved 90% of his individual potential from when he committed here.

Yeah he definitely didn’t regress. He had some really poor shooting performances in some games and just didn’t turn out as dominant as a lot had hoped but definitely didn’t regress. The guy that regressed was Mballa, after last year he just never returned to form. With no bench he need to be a star, and he just wasn’t. 

[UBminicre]

8 hours ago, MuchMany said:

Jeenathan regressed?? That's just incorrect. Do you remember what he was like as a freshman and sophomore? He probably achieved 90% of his individual potential from when he committed here.

In stats, yes. Not leadership/winning. But your right, regressed for him was not the right word. I should have said didn’t reach potential. He was one of the best recruits we ever ever had. Combined with the talent around him, we should have had way more success in big games - we didn’t. 

Clearly he has the stats, but that is not enough when you have that much talent (and the team around him). It needs to translate to success when it counts, it didn’t. Maybe he just wasn’t the guy, but I still put this in the lack of development category, even if his stats did get better from sophomore to senior.

Edited March 11, 2022 by UBminicre

[skrabukes]

8 hours ago, UBminicre said:

At the end of the day, our superstars mostly regressed under JW. Graves was a huge disappointment his final 2 years (albeit still very good). Same can be said for Williams. He put up the stats but didn’t lead the team when we needed him. Same for mbala, total regression. The only one that stayed consistent throughout or maybe got slightly better is segu.

This is a 100% reflection on JW, and he should pay the price. Just the way it is.

 

 

 

Jeenathan ppg by year: 3, 11, 17, 19.

Rondo ppg by year: 2, 8, 13, 15. 

Mballa ppg by year: 1 (at TT), 11, 15, 13. 

 

While ppg is only one metric, and they were given increased opportunities by year as well, those numbers hardly lend themselves to "regression". 

It's not all sunshine and unicorns right now for the program, but these guys, while highly rated coming in, still weren't all Mac guys as young players. Even though they had limited minutes and roles early on, they weren't nearly at the levels they are now (even though Josh still doesn't seem right ppst covid). Disliking or disapproval of the players/staff is everyone's option, but this seems way off base.