Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[UBminicre]

If only 

3 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

Jeenathan ppg by year: 3, 11, 17, 19.

Rondo ppg by year: 2, 8, 13, 15. 

Mballa ppg by year: 1 (at TT), 11, 15, 13. 

 

While ppg is only one metric, and they were given increased opportunities by year as well, those numbers hardly lend themselves to "regression". 

It's not all sunshine and unicorns right now for the program, but these guys, while highly rated coming in, still weren't all Mac guys as young players. Even though they had limited minutes and roles early on, they weren't nearly at the levels they are now (even though Josh still doesn't seem right ppst covid). Disliking or disapproval of the players/staff is everyone's option, but this seems way off base.

If only points per a game were the only thing that determined success for individual players. Then NY Knicks would have won with David Lee avg 25 points a game. But instead he was sent to other teams and was last guy off bench. 
 

I said Graves, Mballa and Williams regressed. I specifically said segu didn’t. After the counterpoints I admitted that regressed was the wrong word for Williams. But the spirit is still the same, he didn’t reach his potential as a leader/winner. His stats were good, but that’s not the end goal, the end goal is to win big games in March - and we failed each year - he was our #1 player and must carry some blame.

 

[skrabukes]

12 minutes ago, UBminicre said:

If only 

If only points per a game were the only thing that determined success for individual players. Then NY Knicks would have won with David Lee avg 25 points a game. But instead he was sent to other teams and was last guy off bench. 
 

I said Graves, Mballa and Williams regressed. I specifically said segu didn’t. After the counterpoints I admitted that regressed was the wrong word for Williams. But the spirit is still the same, he didn’t reach his potential as a leader/winner. His stats were good, but that’s not the end goal, the end goal is to win big games in March - and we failed each year - he was our #1 player and must carry some blame.

 

And I said it was only one metric. Agreed on leading/winning, didn't happen for this group over their final 2 seasons as the go to guys. Jeenathan 6 TOs, Mballa 1-7 and Rondo 1-9 yesterday stings. Those aren't on the coach however. It's sports, and those happen,  unfortunately happened yesterday and too many times this year as a whole.

[DocCas86]

Here is a four year comparison of Massinburg / Perkins to Williams / Segu.

The year over year improvements for Williams / Segu speaks volumes for their hard work as mentioned numerous times during broadcast over the past four years.  As for leading the team to victory, I think that Williams / Segu did plenty to lead to victory - they just didn't have the supporting cast (offensively and defensively) that Massinburg / Perkins had.  If you plug in Massinburg / Perkins for Williams / Segu - it would be interesting to see how much that moved the needle, by itself, I don't think much.   

The lack of supporting cast to make them a championship team falls to Whitesell and his staff.

 

[UBminicre]

1 hour ago, skrabukes said:

And I said it was only one metric. Agreed on leading/winning, didn't happen for this group over their final 2 seasons as the go to guys. Jeenathan 6 TOs, Mballa 1-7 and Rondo 1-9 yesterday stings. Those aren't on the coach however. It's sports, and those happen,  unfortunately happened yesterday and too many times this year as a whole.

 

22 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

Here is a four year comparison of Massinburg / Perkins to Williams / Segu.

The year over year improvements for Williams / Segu speaks volumes for their hard work as mentioned numerous times during broadcast over the past four years.  As for leading the team to victory, I think that Williams / Segu did plenty to lead to victory - they just didn't have the supporting cast (offensively and defensively) that Massinburg / Perkins had.  If you plug in Massinburg / Perkins for Williams / Segu - it would be interesting to see how much that moved the needle, by itself, I don't think much.   

The lack of supporting cast to make them a championship team falls to Whitesell and his staff.

 

Dont disagree with both of your responses. But again, I then go back to JW. He did almost nothing to add talent around our guys. Even Skogman who was the next guy behind JW,RS,JM - was an Oats guy (I think?). We got almost no productivity from anyone from Whitesell and now we have no idea what we will look like next year. Would anyone be surprised if we are a 10 win team? With Graves, JW, JM, RS and co. - when we flamed out there - that was the big time alert for everyone. This season just reiterates that we peaked and are heading downwards fast. Unless JW has some aces up his sleeve - we are in trouble. I pray someone gives me something substantial that can change my mind here...

[skrabukes]

26 minutes ago, UBminicre said:

 

Dont disagree with both of your responses. But again, I then go back to JW. He did almost nothing to add talent around our guys. Even Skogman who was the next guy behind JW,RS,JM - was an Oats guy (I think?). We got almost no productivity from anyone from Whitesell and now we have no idea what we will look like next year. Would anyone be surprised if we are a 10 win team? With Graves, JW, JM, RS and co. - when we flamed out there - that was the big time alert for everyone. This season just reiterates that we peaked and are heading downwards fast. Unless JW has some aces up his sleeve - we are in trouble. I pray someone gives me something substantial that can change my mind here...

Skogman was on the radar, but not confirmed to come due to 5 other guys who were signed/planned to sign and the full allocation of scholarships were used. JW brought him in once they decommitted.

Until we see the roster filled, it's unknown for next year.

[Jeseph]

So it's not the coach, it's the players. But it's not the players, they're just players. Also the lack of bench production is not on the staff. That leaves the state of the program up to no-one.

On top of this, the fact that we're second fiddle to Akron, Ohio, Toledo, and Kent while losing to awful opponents each year (sometimes at home) should not be an issue because we're winning over 15 games a year despite UB's resources and perceived national profile and recent success.

Am I getting all of this right?

Nobody is saying JW is the worst coach ever. But he's not good enough. I've followed this program as what I would consider a diehard since 2004 and think we can and should expect more than, at best, a horizontal trajectory.

[C1ubP1fanaticM7]

I agree, we are absolutely on a decline from a talent standpoint. But hopefully this incoming group plays with more cohesion than the outbound group. And that I’m really excited to see. Even if they’re less talented I’ll enjoy watching them more. Just wasn’t fun to watch iso ball. Our offense was consistently too stagnant, zero movement. I don’t know if that’s on coaching or the individual players. I’m sure it’s a little bit of both. I guess we’ll be able to see next year whose really to blame if Whitesell is still coaching the team. If that doesn’t change, I thinks it’s apparent whose at fault

[Jeseph]

19 minutes ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

I agree, we are absolutely on a decline from a talent standpoint. But hopefully this incoming group plays with more cohesion than the outbound group. And that I’m really excited to see. Even if they’re less talented I’ll enjoy watching them more. Just wasn’t fun to watch iso ball. Our offense was consistently too stagnant, zero movement. I don’t know if that’s on coaching or the individual players. I’m sure it’s a little bit of both. I guess we’ll be able to see next year whose really to blame if Whitesell is still coaching the team. If that doesn’t change, I thinks it’s apparent whose at fault

3 years of "too much iso, no identity, lack of leadership". These are criticisms that we've heard from even the most ardent supporters. I admit that I'm far too negative during some in-game threads or perhaps even early in seasons but I'm sick of seeing/saying the same thing. Under this coach, I will admit that much of the fun in being a fan has subsided.

It sucks.

[DocCas86]

A lot of you talked to the why

28 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

3 years of "too much iso, no identity, lack of leadership". These are criticisms that we've heard from even the most ardent supporters. I admit that I'm far too negative during some in-game threads or perhaps even early in seasons but I'm sick of seeing/saying the same thing. Under this coach, I will admit that much of the fun in being a fan has subsided.

It sucks.

I think this chart of objective rankings (Kenpom) illustrates results consistent with characteristics that you are identifying.

What it shows that Buffalo was perceived as being in the top 4 in MAC the last three years, average as third best.  The teams win percentage is respectable relative to other MAC teams in the Whitesell era, and would also be third best.  The concern, which I think is fair, in a three year span,  despite having two very talented players from prior coach, we were not able to get one championship.  A question which has yet to be answered - do we drop further back next year or are we able to restock.  It remains to be seen what players are brought in and how the talent develops.   

[clodney]

4 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

A lot of you talked to the why

I think this chart of objective rankings (Kenpom) illustrates results consistent with characteristics that you are identifying.

What it shows that Buffalo was perceived as being in the top 4 in MAC the last three years, average as third best.  The teams win percentage is respectable relative to other MAC teams in the Whitesell era, and would also be third best.  The concern, which I think is fair, in a three year span,  despite having two very talented players from prior coach, we were not able to get one championship.  A question which has yet to be answered - do we drop further back next year or are we able to restock.  It remains to be seen what players are brought in and how the talent develops.   

Interesting just how terrible the MAC was this year and yet we still couldn't get out of the first round.

Question though. How are we #3 in your chart for 2022 when we just played in the MAC tourney as the #5 seed?

Also, can we PLEASE stop comparing Whitesell to the Reggie years? Those days, I thought, were behind us.

[UBminicre]

1 hour ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

I agree, we are absolutely on a decline from a talent standpoint. But hopefully this incoming group plays with more cohesion than the outbound group. And that I’m really excited to see. Even if they’re less talented I’ll enjoy watching them more. Just wasn’t fun to watch iso ball. Our offense was consistently too stagnant, zero movement. I don’t know if that’s on coaching or the individual players. I’m sure it’s a little bit of both. I guess we’ll be able to see next year whose really to blame if Whitesell is still coaching the team. If that doesn’t change, I thinks it’s apparent whose at fault

Guess this is the only hope we can have… but boy do I feel uneasy. To think we had a 4 star, arguably best recruit in UB history, who put up plenty of stats but fell awfully flat in March - and we will get better or more fun thereafter. Wishful thinking, but this all we got at this point. I’ll say it again, Tough day for UB basketball. We need a miracle up jw sleeve or to start over.

[Jeseph]

And why should our aspirations be to try and stay level with some MAC coaches? Was Oats a gem of a hire? Of course. But should every hire after that just be "well at least he's not awful"? If the coach isn't showing signs of moving this program in a positive direction, try somebody else.

[DocCas86]

8 minutes ago, clodney said:

Interesting just how terrible the MAC was this year and yet we still couldn't get out of the first round.

Question though. How are we #3 in your chart for 2022 when we just played in the MAC tourney as the #5 seed?

Also, can we PLEASE stop comparing Whitesell to the Reggie years? Those days, I thought, were behind us.

MAC top five were similar to past years so The fact that 6-12 was a big drop off, helps seeds 1-3.

The #3 is based on kenpom.com and do not align with seeding,  Rankings are based on more than won/loss.

I think showing Reggie years helpful for full perspective.  Feel free to ignore.

[121Merrimac]

40 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

What it shows …   

Is this… 

33 minutes ago, clodney said:

 ..just how terrible the MAC was this year..

And also, just how good the overall conference was in 2019. 

[skrabukes]

7 minutes ago, 121Merrimac said:

Is this… 

And also, just how good the overall conference was in 2019. 

Could the transfer portal be a cause of this? In my mind, heck yes.

[clodney]

49 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

MAC top five were similar to past years so The fact that 6-12 was a big drop off, helps seeds 1-3.

The #3 is based on kenpom.com and do not align with seeding,  Rankings are based on more than won/loss.

I think showing Reggie years helpful for full perspective.  Feel free to ignore.

Rankings are based on criteria that fits your narrative. Got it.

[Tee4three]

Status quo: roster filled with similar transfers and a couple more freshmen. 

Whats the expectation for nexts years team?

I would still have top 5 expectations

[DooleyBull06]

2 hours ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

I agree, we are absolutely on a decline from a talent standpoint. But hopefully this incoming group plays with more cohesion than the outbound group. And that I’m really excited to see. Even if they’re less talented I’ll enjoy watching them more. Just wasn’t fun to watch iso ball. Our offense was consistently too stagnant, zero movement. I don’t know if that’s on coaching or the individual players. I’m sure it’s a little bit of both. I guess we’ll be able to see next year whose really to blame if Whitesell is still coaching the team. If that doesn’t change, I thinks it’s apparent whose at fault

To this point let me ask those who support the coach and have a rosy outlook…if there was no cohesion with this group of player, stagnant offense with little player or ball movement and lots of iso ball, isn’t it on the coach to make the players adapt to his philosophy? Not just let the players freelance on the court? Who is running the team Whitesell or the players? Was Whitesell afraid to be tougher on this group for fear they would transfer? Yes a good coach adapts his philosophy to the players he has but it always seemed one sided…the whole square peg round hole argument. The players never bought in. Especially defensively and it seems Whitesell was ok with that. The whole players coach/softy argument. 

[DooleyBull06]

3 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

Status quo: roster filled with similar transfers and a couple more freshmen. 

Whats the expectation for nexts years team?

I would still have top 5 expectations

Excellent question…my personal expectations as constituted…anywhere from a 5-8 at best. And that’s only because the bottom of the MAC is so bad. Just imagine if we played Ohio and Akron twice and not fed off the bottom teams in February. We are gonna young and inexperienced. Especially in the back court. We don’t have any perimeter shooting. Lots of bigs. No wings. And a lot to be desired on the defensive end. 

[skrabukes]

13 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

To this point let me ask those who support the coach and have a rosy outlook…if there was no cohesion with this group of player, stagnant offense with little player or ball movement and lots of iso ball, isn’t it on the coach to make the players adapt to his philosophy? Not just let the players freelance on the court? Who is running the team Whitesell or the players? Was Whitesell afraid to be tougher on this group for fear they would transfer? Yes a good coach adapts his philosophy to the players he has but it always seemed one sided…the whole square peg round hole argument. The players never bought in. Especially defensively and it seems Whitesell was ok with that. The whole players coach/softy argument. 

I can't argue/disagree with these questions. I think that next year's team builds around Skogman currently. Hopefully a new core of players bring the true "blue collar" mindset back, as it's been greatly missed and lacking on thr floor.

[UB92]

1 hour ago, clodney said:

Also, can we PLEASE stop comparing Whitesell to the Reggie years? Those days, I thought, were behind us.

These were the last five years for Reggie:

2008–09    Buffalo    21–12    11–5    T–1st    CBI First Round
2009–10    Buffalo    18–12    9–7    T–3rd    
2010–11    Buffalo    20–14    8–8    T–5th    CIT Quarterfinals
2011–12    Buffalo    20–11    12–4    2nd    CIT Second Round
2012–13    Buffalo    14–20    7–9    8th    

Three 20-win seasons  Four of five years finishing in the top 5 in the conference.  I mean, that's okay.  But it wasn't good enough for the AD, so he was fired.  And, of course, he decision changed the trajectory of the program for the many years.

 

I know people want to be optimistic about the future, because it is happier to think in that way.  But the harsh reality is that a lot is going to have to go right this upcoming year (we don't lose players or recruits, maybe Segu stays, we get some impactful transfers this summer, guys develop over the summer, etc.) for us to have a look at a 20 win season.   In other words, I don't think that the RW days are behind us for the near future, unfortunately.  

[MKBullsfan]

Honestly we need to look at the players to take part of the blame too. It’s no way a means of knocking them for not trying. But the Hurley and Oats teams where different because they had players who played with a chip on their shoulder and fire. I really did not get a sense of that from Williams or Mballa. Segu showed some fight but he wasn’t much of a factor. When we recruit going forward we need players who dive on the floor, are scrappy and play defense with intensity. Also those that are clutch and want to propel their team to the win. I just don’t think these seniors were ever wired like that which lead to a mediocre season. Just an observation 

[DocCas86]

21 minutes ago, clodney said:

Rankings are based on criteria that fits your narrative. Got it.

Hmmm.. I must not have been very clear.  I didn't have a narrative and it was not my intent to say only consider the ranking and his won/loss record - but ok. Let me be clearer:  

I was showing that we have been competitive in the MAC.  However, we have not won when it counted.  This result happened when we have the benefit of two great players from prior coach.  So I understand the concerns that we could sink further into depths of the MAC with their graduation.   I understand the sentiment calling for a new coach.

Going back to earlier in the year - I was optimistic based on where we ended last year that we would improve slightly.  Hence I was supportive of Whitesell.  Instead the team took a step back.   So I am late to the party, but I do get it. 

The one final point, even the best MAC coaches only won a championship about one in four years (note I didn't take time to update Boals / Groce to current record).  So this is how I set my expectation - win close to 70% of games, be top 1 or 2 team in the MAC, net rank between 50-125 most years, and win the MAC once every four years.  But in last 20 something years you have only six coaches who have reached that bar - so they are rare.

 

[skrabukes]

31 minutes ago, MKBullsfan said:

Honestly we need to look at the players to take part of the blame too. It’s no way a means of knocking them for not trying. But the Hurley and Oats teams where different because they had players who played with a chip on their shoulder and fire. I really did not get a sense of that from Williams or Mballa. Segu showed some fight but he wasn’t much of a factor. When we recruit going forward we need players who dive on the floor, are scrappy and play defense with intensity. Also those that are clutch and want to propel their team to the win. I just don’t think these seniors were ever wired like that which lead to a mediocre season. Just an observation 

This team was missing that "heart" player like Dontay was or Adeyeye is fot the women's team. Having that would've gone a long way this year and the past couple as well.

[Tee4three]

So a lot of talk about the Reggie days

In my opinion a big part of why reggie was fired was because Danny white knew he had Bobby Hurley that would coach the team. That really was a win win situation. Even if Bobby failed. Name recognition alone would be beneficial to the program

Does Mark Alnutt have a Bobby Hurley in his pocket? If so we may see a new coach, if not you have to let whitesell succeed or fail this coming season. This will fully be his team. Not many excuse will be able to be made

I really don't think a big search from scratch this offseason for a new coach is beneficial to the school/program going forward. If you got someone ready to go I'm all for it though