Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[John]

8 hours ago, Jeseph said:

Would you agree that a coaches job is to hold his players accountable?

Agree and when the team and players don’t have a successful season the one to be fired is the coach. Do we think the players do any soul searching. Agree the mental side of the game is so important but a coach can’t make shots, free throws or stop turnovers by players. Again I am not giving any passes to our coaching staff as they are the ones who are held responsible. Let’s take just one example as there are probably 100’s. Oats team at Alabama with all their very talented players and many 4/5 stars. He could not get them to play defense, could not get them to shoot 3’s consistently, their free throw shooting was very inconsistent and following them this year Oats said in interviews that he could not get them to play the way he wanted them to. Does that make him now a bad coach? There are just so many factors that can influence how a team does but that is the beauty of college basketball.

[UBminicre]

8 hours ago, John said:

Agree and when the team and players don’t have a successful season the one to be fired is the coach. Do we think the players do any soul searching. Agree the mental side of the game is so important but a coach can’t make shots, free throws or stop turnovers by players. Again I am not giving any passes to our coaching staff as they are the ones who are held responsible. Let’s take just one example as there are probably 100’s. Oats team at Alabama with all their very talented players and many 4/5 stars. He could not get them to play defense, could not get them to shoot 3’s consistently, their free throw shooting was very inconsistent and following them this year Oats said in interviews that he could not get them to play the way he wanted them to. Does that make him now a bad coach? There are just so many factors that can influence how a team does but that is the beauty of college basketball.

What’s with you guys still defending Whitesell? It’s one thing to say players need to be accountable, sure. But like others are saying, the coach must teach, game plan, inspire, adjust, rotate, recruit and find the best combo to win now and for the future. In all the time Whitesell has been with us, he hasn’t added one single player to our roster that made an impact over the last, what 3 seasons? Somebody said that we are returning only one player who avg 2 ppg to our starting lineup next year. That’s going into our coaches 4th season! As far as I am concerned, he is absolutely 100% disqualified for that alone. That can happen in 1st year (perhaps for our ladies team now) but not on your 4th year. He sucked this roster dry and has nothing to show for it. We need a miracle over the next 1-2 years.

[DocCas86]

7 hours ago, Erie County said:

Right because the dope AD gave this guy an underserved extension for no reason. This guy has ruined athletics here at Buffalo. 

There was no vision after riding the coattails of the last coaches recruits. 
 
With Skogman gone this team literally returns 2 points per game. That’s about as bad as I’ve ever seen. It’s unacceptable level of recruiting. Now that he loses the few he gets, it makes him a huge failure. 
 

Fire Jim Whitesell, not just for being one and done and never beating good teams, but for the lack of vision for the program with zero in the cupboard on April 1st. It’s worse than when you lose a coach to power 5. You knew who you were losing and you can’t fill a team. 
 

 

Unfortunately this is state of things right now.  Last year, the team opted to go mostly with HS seniors.  That is fine, but Whitesell needed to give them playing time this past year, so they have experience heading into this year.  Alternatively, given how things played out (i.e. the benefit of hindsight), instead of Mading / Blocker you get 2 more players similar to Jones last year - might have helped the bench this past season and put them in better position for this year, and you could focus on adding HS recruits this year.  One or the other should have happened, I think.

[Jeseph]

9 hours ago, John said:

Oats said in interviews that he could not get them to play the way he wanted them to. Does that make him now a bad coach? There are just so many factors that can influence how a team does but that is the beauty of college basketball.

No but Oats has the awareness to identify this as the problem and presents it as one that he wasn’t able to fix. We just watched our 3rd season without identify, leadership, and consistency. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t believe I’ve heard Whitesell speak about it this way. If Oats has that same problem 3 years in a row you better believe he’ll be on the hot seat.

and yes, of course I acknowledge there are may factors at play I just don’t think this year was isolate — instead it is part of a pattern.

[C1ubP1fanaticM7]

If Stogman leaves, Whitesell has to do what’s right and retire. 

[John]

57 minutes ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

If Stogman leaves, Whitesell has to do what’s right and retire. 

Do agree maybe he will decide this is just too much turmoil and not worth enjoyable. But this is happening all over the college landscape so maybe coaches all over should get out of this crazy situation that was created by the NCAAand all the crazies out there that created this crazy situation. 

[Jeseph]

Hey can one of the athletics staff members that read this board show this thread to Alnutt? 

[clodney]

14 hours ago, Jeseph said:

Hey can one of the athletics staff members that read this board show this thread to Alnutt? 

Show it to Tripathi. Many of us have lost faith in Alnutt as well.

[rma]

37 minutes ago, clodney said:

Show it to Tripathi. Many of us have lost faith in Alnutt as well.

Tripathi probably doesn't care

[clodney]

Today is the day. Whitesell's buyout just dropped $100k.

This upcoming year is now a complete rebuild. If we don't fire him now, I can't imagine how bad it's going to feel in 12 months when we end up winning only a handful of games. Why prolong the inevitable execution and dig an even bigger hole just to save another $100k in buyout?

Let's start fresh and give someone else the chance to run this rebuild.

[UB92]

12 hours ago, clodney said:

Today is the day. Whitesell's buyout just dropped $100k.

This upcoming year is now a complete rebuild. If we don't fire him now, I can't imagine how bad it's going to feel in 12 months when we end up winning only a handful of games. Why prolong the inevitable execution and dig an even bigger hole just to save another $100k in buyout?

Let's start fresh and give someone else the chance to run this rebuild.

You would do this if you were singularly focused on winning.

But financials play an outsized role here (as we saw with what they are paying him), so they would still be on the hook for JW's salary / buyout, plus having to pay a coach...and this president doesn't want to pay a coach, it seems.   This won't happen.

The interesting question is how many wins will JW need to have in 2022-23 in order for him to be retained the following year.   

I may put up a poll on that in October if I remember.

[Jeseph]

9 hours ago, UB92 said:

The interesting question is how many wins will JW need to have in 2022-23 in order for him to be retained the following year.

1? 10 gets him an extension?

[DooleyBull06]

10 hours ago, UB92 said:

The interesting question is how many wins will JW need to have in 2022-23 in order for him to be retained the following year.

Serious answer: since it seems like mediocrity might be acceptable, just making it to Cleveland means he will be safe. Showing improvement with a younger squad while missing Cleveland might mean he gets another year. A 5 win disaster season might make the seat hot. I guess my point is…I can see the AD being one year too late rather than a year too soon in firing him.

[clodney]

46 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

A 5 win disaster season might make the seat hot. 

No way.

Whitesell took over a completely stacked roster on one of the best midmajors in the country. In his first 3 years he bombed and now in year 4 we're saying he "might make his seat hot" with a dismal 5 wins! That's bull$hit. The low expectations for next season are the result of his failure to build depth on the roster. He might not need to win the MAC next year but if this team doesn't show it can challenge for the title the following year there's no point keeping him around. I'd draw the line at 13 15 games. - edited from 13 to 15 because that would be .500 in a 30 game season.

Edited April 6, 2022 by clodney

[Kevin]

10 minutes ago, clodney said:

No way.

Whitesell took over a completely stacked roster on one of the best midmajors in the country. In his first 3 years he bombed and now in year 4 we're saying he "might make his seat hot" with a dismal 5 wins! That's bull$hit. The low expectations for next season are the result of his failure to build depth on the roster. He might not need to win the MAC next year but if this team doesn't show it can challenge for the title the following year there's no point keeping him around. I'd draw the line at 13 15 games. - edited from 13 to 15 because that would be .500 in a 30 game season.

.500 is a number he knows well 

[DooleyBull06]

13 minutes ago, clodney said:

No way.

Whitesell took over a completely stacked roster on one of the best midmajors in the country. In his first 3 years he bombed and now in year 4 we're saying he "might make his seat hot" with a dismal 5 wins! That's bull$hit. The low expectations for next season are the result of his failure to build depth on the roster. He might not need to win the MAC next year but if this team doesn't show it can challenge for the title the following year there's no point keeping him around. I'd draw the line at 13 15 games. - edited from 13 to 15 because that would be .500 in a 30 game season.

I agree. 100%. But I have little faith in this administration. People here often refer to the Reggie days. There was a lot of “patience” then. A lot of mediocrity then. And the fear amongst most of us is a return to those days. And my previous statement is exactly that. 

[skrabukes]

We have no idea what this team, or any team will look like in the fall. There's only a few rosters in the country that is set for next year and sadly most teams at our level have a good number in the portal/graduated. As limited as our roster already was going to be, others have caught up to us with their big players portal bound. While I'm certainly not dancing over where we are currently with the men's roster, it's an incomplete grade for me right now. The women's team is worse off currently. Other mac teams are mostly in the same jam. It's ridiculous up and down.

[Tee4three]

I don't know if there is a specific number that keeps him as i think this coming year is more gray than black and white

1. Get to cleveland

2. Show the potential that the young core has

Are they .500 all season or did they start slow and go 8-2 down the stretch (against teams a head of them in the standings not just bottom teams)

Another thing I would like to see is the return of more 3 guard line ups, and more ball pressure by the guards. The defense needs to start with the guards and go from there

I like the young core and current team build, just need to finish it. The 5 of jones/ceasar/blocker/mading/Williamson

Thats a good base, just wish they got more experience this past season

 

[skrabukes]

1 hour ago, Tee4three said:

 

I like the young core and current team build, just need to finish it. The 5 of jones/ceasar/blocker/mading/Williamson

Thats a good base, just wish they got more experience this past season

 

Honestly, does it matter if they improve? If they improve, and lead the team to 20 wins, they'll all be in the portal next year anyhow. If they don't,  or don't play as much as they desire, they'll portal also. I honestly have no idea how to rate anyone's success anymore. Previously,  I lauded keeping the roster intact, relatively no portal departures, and solid record overall (Yes, no championship, early mac exits. I am aware). Now, not only does the team graduate it's core, players (may) exit also. Same for nearly everyone in the ncaa. It seems like a fools errand to try to predict future success beyond 1 season. 

The portal has grown from 1050 last week to 1188 now. Practically every school is in there, but especially our tier of school. 

"1 - go to Cleveland" - that'd be nice. 

"2 - show potential of the core" - I think "core" is gone in the ncaa. Just my 2 cents.

[DocCas86]

12 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

Honestly, does it matter if they improve? If they improve, and lead the team to 20 wins, they'll all be in the portal next year anyhow. If they don't,  or don't play as much as they desire, they'll portal also. I honestly have no idea how to rate anyone's success anymore. Previously,  I lauded keeping the roster intact, relatively no portal departures, and solid record overall (Yes, no championship, early mac exits. I am aware). Now, not only does the team graduate it's core, players (may) exit also. Same for nearly everyone in the ncaa. It seems like a fools errand to try to predict future success beyond 1 season. 

The portal has grown from 1050 last week to 1188 now. Practically every school is in there, but especially our tier of school. 

"1 - go to Cleveland" - that'd be nice. 

"2 - show potential of the core" - I think "core" is gone in the ncaa. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you it is very difficult to predict from one year to next with the portal as active as it is.  The staff needs to piece together the best talent they can convince to play with UB for the upcoming year and hope the players are able to gel (Is this perhaps a little of a plus side of the portal - the opportunity exists to rebuild the roster after losing so many to graduation).  In a perfect world, UB is able to remain competitive this year, and the 'Core' likes their prospects next year, and you end up with limited defections one year hence.  If not start the game of musical chairs next year.

On a side note - has anyone seen any tweets saying David Skogman tells me he has talked to team w,x,y and z?  Curious what the prospects of him determining he is better staying for one more year?

[clodney]

If we're in this constant state of fluctuation and our roster challenges are no more difficult than anyone else's - I think it's fair that we expect a MAC Championship next year. 

[DocCas86]

I am hoping my latest entry will add some of my perspective.  We would likely all agree that our goal would be to have an elite coach in the MAC.  There may be some debate as to what constitutes an elite coach.  Here is what I propose starting with identifying the historic elite MAC coaches:

Let me summarize the characteristics:

• Win roughly 66% of their games. -> Whitesell 63% possibly trending down next year.
• Best year rank near 50-70. -> Whitesell 77
• Typical year rank ~100 -> Whitesell based on 3 years I would say 130
• Worse year 125-150 -> unclear my guess would be 175
• Win MAC tournament 1 in 3 years. -> Has yet to win

Based on his 3 years (a limited sample), he does not hit the mark for elite MAC coach, but you have some perspective how he stacks up so far.  For now, Whitesell is the coach and I hope that he finds players for upcoming season to keep win % north of 60% next year, and the young talent gels leading to better things in 2023 and beyond.  Likely for some that is not good enough or is very unlikely to happen, but I choose to remain hopeful.

Edited April 7, 2022 by DocCas86

[MuchMany]

42 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

I am hoping my latest entry will add some of my perspective.  We would likely all agree that our goal would be to have an elite coach in the MAC.  There may be some debate as to what constitutes an elite coach.  Here is what I propose starting with identifying the historic elite MAC coaches:

Let me summarize the characteristics:

• Win roughly 66% of their games. -> Whitesell 63% possibly trending down next year.
• Best year rank near 50-70. -> Whitesell 77
• Typical year rank ~100 -> Whitesell based on 3 years I would say 130
• Worse year 125-150 -> unclear my guess would be 175
• Win MAC tournament 1 in 3 years. -> Has yet to win

Based on his 3 years (a limited sample), he does not hit the mark for elite MAC coach, but you have some perspective how he stacks up so far.  For now, Whitesell is the coach and I hope that he finds players for upcoming season to keep win % north of 60% next year, and the young talent gels leading to better things in 2023 and beyond.  Likely for some that is not good enough or is very unlikely to happen, but I choose to remain hopeful.

Useful perspective backed up by data, thanks Doc.

What a fickle business these guys are in. A dozen more made threes from Brewton and Jack, and a handful of more inspired performances from post-Covid Mballa would likely have won 3-4 more regular season games and have Whitesell's metrics sitting at the low end of this group (aside from the MAC title, but butterfly effect on seeding etc, who knows.)

Not saying he deserves any sympathy, as he's compensated well to play a high risk/reward game. Just crazy how slim the margins are, often decided by the flick of the wrist of a 20 year old kid. If he were a great coach, he would have figured out ways to better shield himself and his team from the variance inherent in the college game. But he isn't and he didn't, and now he rightfully finds himself one season away from a red hot seat.

[promotherobot]

The Bulls looked like they were moving at half speed and paying half attention.

[Chet]

Easy to dump on Whitesell and Co. after that performance. I think this team will be a work in progress and will be fun to watch as the season continues. Will probably be ups and downs. But that had to be one of the worst performances in my 20+ years going to games at Alumni. Whitesell is not a very good coach. He's been a mediocre head coach his entire career. I assume he will continue to be that.