Conference Realignment

[CheerUB80/84]

20 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

No home/home?  

You want to give away a game?

Who do you propose to play?  Where do you propose to play?

 

I do not know who will play us. Choose St John's, Hofstra, Iona ect...  Truth be known I like to see it against St John's at MSG

[promotherobot]

5 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This is a cop out.  
 

The push to remove the Buffalo name was a poor plan that was clunky and had the worst execution. 
 

Buffalo is the name of the school. Just like Syracuse is the name of a school.  That doesn’t stop the Orange from playing in NYC to reach an alumni base.  The same with how many other schools play games in large metro areas where they have a large concentration of alumni.  

The athletic department never made a push to reach alumni by bringing the teams to them.  The thinking was that the team needed to play home games to try to cultivate local fans (while trying to remove the Buffalo brand at the same time).    
 

And the idea was that it was more important to get a paycheck from the highest bidder no matter where they were located and only play other mid-majors in tournaments if they couldn’t get into top tournaments. 
 

The issue was that the strategy wasn’t consistent.  They were constantly at odds with their strategy as it changed constantly based on whatever they wanted at any given moment. 
 

Think about it…

 

(1) We are New York’s team and need to drop the Buffalo brand because it holds us back from down state alums caring about us but (2) we need to have a major push to engage the local fans and sponsors because they are the lifeblood that will keep the program alive.
 

(1) We need to make sure that we brand ourselves as New York’s team to gain favor with downstate so they will follow the team but (2) we need to play games in Texas against big name schools because that will get people in Texas familiar with the the Buffalo brand.  
 

(1) We need to play a non-D1 team every season because we don’t have the budget to play anyone else but (2) we can’t play a home/home with Hofstra, Albany, or Iona in front of alumni because they aren’t big time enough. 
 

(1) We need to play games that get on Regional sports networks in California and Florida because that will get people familiar with Buffalo who haven’t heard of them but (2) can’t play games against Siena, Colgate, or Cornell that will be shown across New York on cable because it will only reach people in the Eastern part of the state or downstate despite being New York’s Public Powerhouse.  

 

(1) We need to focus on recruiting in the Great Lakes region because that’s where our conference is located and where recruits are familiar with us but (2) need to drop the Buffalo brand because it makes the alumni and prospective students down state seem like they are we are in the Midwest.  
 

(1) Need to play a game against Canisius at Key Bank Center so that we are in front of our fans who don’t travel to Amherst while getting experience playing in a game that mimics the NCAA tournament but can’t play a home/home deal with Fairfield (Webster Bank Arena) which would be closer to the alumni base. 
 

 

Nothing was wrong with NYBI other than thin-skinned locals feeling insulted. And the reason to brand NEW YORK over BUFFALO was so we looked like what we say we are: the flagship public university of New York State. 

[dutchcountry7]

Just now, promotherobot said:

Nothing was wrong with NYBI other than thin-skinned locals feeling insulted. And the reason to brand NEW YORK over BUFFALO was so we looked like what we say we are: the flagship public university of New York State. 

The fact that it was called NYBI was comical.  
 

The branding literally had “initiative” in it.  Nothing like making it obvious that it is a marketing ploy to shape a narrative.  
 

It was horrible.  It caused misalignment with the academic side of the house as the branding and marketing were not aligned.  It didn’t change the actual name of the teams for athletic purposes.  So the moniker on the ticker and on the scoreboard on the screen said Buffalo but the field and Uniforms said New York. 
 

It caused confusion; it wasn’t succinct.  It was the antithesis of everything marketing is meant to be.  
 

And yes it did alienate some of the local fans.  Though I am not too concerned about that because there wasn’t much of a local fan base to begin with.  And they would ultimately come back.  
 

The problem I have was not that the name was changed but that the name wasn’t changed.  SUNY denied the request for a name change and to try to elevate UB to the flagship namesake.  And as a result there was a fools plan devised to try it anyways. It was horribly executed.  It was like it was the only idea they had and when it was denied they felt committed to it and tried to force it through despite all of the stakeholders withdrawing their support and not going along with it. 
 

It was horrible and had nothing to do with locals having thin skin.  If it did we wouldn’t be talking about Buffalo today.  It wasn’t the locals that made it a failure.  It was the rest of the state that scratched their head and shrugged when they saw the pitiful preening that you call the NYBI. 

[DooleyBull06]

I’m not gonna get lost in the weeds here but I’m gonna say one simple statement…every college basketball team would kill to play a game in NYC. No stipulations, no this, no that. Playing a single game down here goes a long way for recruiting and marketing. Whether it be the Garden, UBS arena, Barclays, Jersey or on the road to anyone of the NYC metro area schools…UB should make 1 yearly pilgrimage down here. It just makes sense/cents.

[dutchcountry7]

6 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I’m not gonna get lost in the weeds here but I’m gonna say one simple statement…every college basketball team would kill to play a game in NYC. No stipulations, no this, no that. Playing a single game down here goes a long way for recruiting and marketing. Whether it be the Garden, UBS arena, Barclays, Jersey or on the road to anyone of the NYC metro area schools…UB should make 1 yearly pilgrimage down here. It just makes sense/cents.

That’s why you do it as a home/home to establish your fan base and be able to dependably market to them. 
 

You don’t start out getting those deals without fans.  Unless you’re willing to provide a financial guarantee to rent the arena yourself and pay the guarantee to bring in the opponent. 

[CheerUB80/84]

34 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

That’s why you do it as a home/home to establish your fan base and be able to dependably market to them. 
 

You don’t start out getting those deals without fans.  Unless you’re willing to provide a financial guarantee to rent the arena yourself and pay the guarantee to bring in the opponent. 

The idea is to play one game a year where your Alumni live.  I can not get up to Buffalo to see them there.  I can take my family and meet the people that I went to school with in the NYC area.  That will build more financial support.  I do want to see them live and in person both in football and basketball.  Get the game down here so you can bring in a new fan base.

[dutchcountry7]

8 hours ago, CheerUB80/84 said:

The idea is to play one game a year where your Alumni live.  I can not get up to Buffalo to see them there.  I can take my family and meet the people that I went to school with in the NYC area.  That will build more financial support.  I do want to see them live and in person both in football and basketball.  Get the game down here so you can bring in a new fan base.

That’s literally what I was saying.  
 

And you start that by doing a home/home. 
 

it’s like the people who propose “Why don’t they just schedule Duke at Alumni arena? That will bring the fans out.”  
 

It is not how you start. that’s the ultimate goal of where the program would like to get someday. 

[dutchcountry7]

13 hours ago, CheerUB80/84 said:

I do not know who will play us. Choose St John's, Hofstra, Iona ect...  Truth be known I like to see it against St John's at MSG

So do a home/home with Hofstra or Iona?  Like I mentioned?

So you’re in agreement with what I was saying. 

[mikescherrer8]

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

So do a home/home with Hofstra or Iona?  Like I mentioned?

So you’re in agreement with what I was saying. 

We’ll do or say anything to get you to shush. 

[DooleyBull06]

3 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

That’s literally what I was saying.  
 

And you start that by doing a home/home. 
 

it’s like the people who propose “Why don’t they just schedule Duke at Alumni arena? That will bring the fans out.”  
 

It is not how you start. that’s the ultimate goal of where the program would like to get someday. 

While I don’t disagree I just think we can’t demand home and home off the bat. Establish connections with other schools and establish roots in the NYC area. Then demand home and home. I feel like UB is having trouble scheduling in large part bc we are being too demanding. I agree with you, and home and homes and just home games are the bigger picture. But step one is just playing a game down here imo. 

[dutchcountry7]

2 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

While I don’t disagree I just think we can’t demand home and home off the bat. Establish connections with other schools and establish roots in the NYC area. Then demand home and home. I feel like UB is having trouble scheduling in large part bc we are being too demanding. I agree with you, and home and homes and just home games are the bigger picture. But step one is just playing a game down here imo. 

You don't think we can get a home/home deal with NJIT, Hofstra, Iona, Manhattan, Long Island, Columbia, Stony Brook, FDU, St. Pete's, Wagner, or St. Francis? 

Yes, a home/home with St. John's or Seton Hall won't happen.  But we absolutely can get home/home deals that also deliver down state games.

It seems like Hofstra is always playing Bonaventure.  We are a better game for them.  At least they could recruit Buffalo where they are actual good players.

Edited October 27, 2021 by dutchcountry7

[DooleyBull06]

47 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

You don't think we can get a home/home deal with NJIT, Hofstra, Iona, Manhattan, Long Island, Columbia, Stony Brook, FDU, St. Pete's, Wagner, or St. Francis? 

Yes, a home/home with St. John's or Seton Hall won't happen.  But we absolutely can get home/home deals that also deliver down state games.

It seems like Hofstra is always playing Bonaventure.  We are a better game for them.  At least they could recruit Buffalo where they are actual good players.

Then why haven’t we? We’ve had issues scheduling since Whitesell took over. Why haven’t we? Not being condescending, legitimately asking? Is it because we are cheap? Too stubborn to go on to road to play a lesser team like a St. Francis? Why? 

[DooleyBull06]

Ideal scenario…we have a game in NYC against let’s say Manhattan. The team comes down 2 days in advance gets in some practice but also reward the players with a night on the town (possible NIL opportunity). Then whip some Jasper butt. The team heads back to Buffalo while the recruiting coach stays behind and hits the trail and makes in roads. 

[UB92]

6 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Ideal scenario…we have a game in NYC against let’s say Manhattan. The team comes down 2 days in advance gets in some practice but also reward the players with a night on the town (possible NIL opportunity). Then whip some Jasper butt. The team heads back to Buffalo while the recruiting coach stays behind and hits the trail and makes in roads. 

Anything we can do to go where our alumni are (which is NYC area) is a win.

Let's do it. 

Dutch...please spend less time responding to each message and more time engaging with the power-that-be at UB to make this happen.

[dutchcountry7]

20 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Then why haven’t we? We’ve had issues scheduling since Whitesell took over. Why haven’t we? Not being condescending, legitimately asking? Is it because we are cheap? Too stubborn to go on to road to play a lesser team like a St. Francis? Why? 

We have been reluctant to schedule Home/Home games.  

The athletic department has been focused on selling games to bring in money.  Playing teams on the road that will give us a paycheck.  Trying to get good competitive games in tournaments which is often when we see other good mid-majors. Then filling the slate with home games with teams we buy for less than we sell our games for.  This is why we always play a non-D1.  They are dirt cheap.

The idea has been to bring in money (which the athletic department hasn't had) and use that money to pay for the staff and to get some teams to come in to try to cultivate a local Buffalo fan base through home games.

These are the home/home deals we have done since 2015 to 2020:

- St Bona (every year)

- Canisius (every year)

- Niagara (stopped playing)

- Southern Illinois (2x in 2019)

- Delaware (2016/2018)

- Binghamton (2014/15)

The program has been VERY light on playing Home/Home deals.  Most mid-majors will play between 5-6 home/home series year.  Often it is about half of their non-tournament games. For instance, Cornell played 10 home/home games in 2019.  5 home and 5 away with the alternate the year before or the year following.  UB plays between 2-3 a year.

It's important to remember how low the program was even when we were winning and going to the big Dance.  In 2015 and 2016 we were selling games to Texas-Arlington, Grand Canyon, St. Joe's, and Old Dominion through tournament deals.  

These are teams that should have been our peers and we should have been getting home/home deals with but they were buying us because we were desperate for the cash.

Which is back to my original point on the strategy.  It was a Buffalo (not NY State) focused strategy.  The admin decided to invest in home games to try to cultivate the local fan base (which considering that student fees was funding the program it may have made sense to try to bring a lot of games to campus).  Which was at odds with the branding that was put out at the same time.

But now the program is turning the corner and there is a need to engage fans directly.  Yes, there is still a cash crunch as there is a lot of debt with the football facility and other initiatives but we are in a position to be able to be transitioning away from what was done before and should be making the push to develop the downstate market.

I have always thought a dual Upstate/downstate strategy should have been implemented and that in-state home/home deals would have been more beneficial.   

The scheduling strategy has shifted this year and focused more on scheduling home/home games with other top mid-majors to try to get good games at the expense of home games (#30 St. Bona, #112 UC-Irving, #135 North Texas, #90 Western Kentucky). Which is going to be a much more challenging schedule and will bring good games to campus.

But in order to do it they are playing two non-D1 games this year (Point Park and St. John Fisher).

I would much rather get rid of these non-D1 games to play a game or two around NY state every year to get in front of alums.  But maybe the budget is already stretched and just can't support a trip downstate with only one buy game on the schedule so we were forced to bring in two non-D1 teams for less money than it would cost to get hotels/bus to a game a few hours away.

 

[promotherobot]

What's funny is C-USA would rather invite FCS schools than MAC schools.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/sun-belt-expansion-southern-miss-old-dominion-join-conference-with-marshall-fcs-power-expected-to-follow/

[UB77]

Whatever CUSA turns out to be, it would be a serious demotion for any MAC schools.

 

 

 

 

[UBlearns]

13 minutes ago, UB77 said:

Whatever CUSA turns out to be, it would be a serious demotion for any MAC schools.

I think that's exactly it.  CUSA was already a lateral move at best, if not a step-down (which I'd personally argue), and they just got all of their top prospects raided for other conferences.  CUSA is on extreme life support, and there is absolutely zero reason for any MAC school to jump ship to CUSA at this point, even if CUSA wanted them.

[promotherobot]

14 hours ago, UB77 said:

Whatever CUSA turns out to be, it would be a serious demotion for any MAC schools.

 

 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, UBlearns said:

I think that's exactly it.  CUSA was already a lateral move at best, if not a step-down (which I'd personally argue), and they just got all of their top prospects raided for other conferences.  CUSA is on extreme life support, and there is absolutely zero reason for any MAC school to jump ship to CUSA at this point, even if CUSA wanted them.

Still the fact remains that MAC schools aren't even considered in any conference realignment talk. You'd think someone ask just on the off chance someone would say yes. But they'd rather ask FCS schools. That's some cold brew. Are you sure we aren't convincing ourselves we are above them?

[UBlearns]

14 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

 

Still the fact remains that MAC schools aren't even considered in any conference realignment talk. You'd think someone ask just on the off chance someone would say yes. But they'd rather ask FCS schools. That's some cold brew. Are you sure we aren't convincing ourselves we are above them?

I'm certainly not saying that the MAC schools are any great shakes, or "better" than the schools in CUSA, but moreso that the level of competition / national recognition is essentially the same at this point between the two conferences, the MAC's media deal is superior to CUSA's deal, and a move to CUSA wouldn't make sense from a geographical standpoint (travel costs for non-revenue sports, etc.).

I agree it's a little curious that none of the MAC schools have been mentioned for a move to CUSA, but none of us know what's going on behind the scenes.  Maybe the MAC schools made it very clear early on that they're not interested and shot down any prospective moves.  Maybe CUSA doesn't want a more northern footprint.  Maybe CUSA would prefer FCS schools.  Either way, CUSA has been a shell of its former self for a long time, and I'm certainly not upset that UB and other MAC schools aren't in the conversation for a jump to CUSA.

[promotherobot]

3 minutes ago, UBlearns said:

I'm certainly not saying that the MAC schools are any great shakes, or "better" than the schools in CUSA, but moreso that the level of competition / national recognition is essentially the same at this point between the two conferences, the MAC's media deal is superior to CUSA's deal, and a move to CUSA wouldn't make sense from a geographical standpoint (travel costs for non-revenue sports, etc.).

I agree it's a little curious that none of the MAC schools have been mentioned for a move to CUSA, but none of us know what's going on behind the scenes.  Maybe the MAC schools made it very clear early on that they're not interested and shot down any prospective moves.  Maybe CUSA doesn't want a more northern footprint.  Maybe CUSA would prefer FCS schools.  Either way, CUSA has been a shell of its former self for a long time, and I'm certainly not upset that UB and other MAC schools aren't in the conversation for a jump to CUSA.

...or ANY other conference!

Meanwhile UMass is sitting there, all forelorn.

https://www.underdogdynasty.com/2021/10/27/22748804/umass-will-likely-be-left-behind-in-conference-realignment-and-its-the-administrations-fault-cfb

Maybe the MAC should extend an invite to UMass and UConn for football?

Edited October 28, 2021 by promotherobot

[dutchcountry7]

40 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

 

Still the fact remains that MAC schools aren't even considered in any conference realignment talk. You'd think someone ask just on the off chance someone would say yes. But they'd rather ask FCS schools. That's some cold brew. Are you sure we aren't convincing ourselves we are above them?

Who would you ask?

This is a serious question.  Who do you think they would ask?

What school do you look at that you think would be a good geographic fit, has shown that they can consistently win, are willing to put more money into their athletic department, and has a fan base that will drive media revenues (which this is really all about).

Demographic shifts are not on the MAC's side.  And for Michigan and Ohio schools (the majority of the conference) they are really locked in with their peers.

 

[dutchcountry7]

18 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

Maybe the MAC should extend an invite to UMass and UConn for football?

No.  They add no value to the conference.

We already have deals in place to play them.  They are indies which means they are desperate to get games and prefer regional games.  Them not being in the MAC helps us.

We get to schedule them as local regional foes.  And we can recruit against them with the sales pitch that if you play at UB you can play in a conference championship game and play in a bowl game.  Both of which isn't happening at UMass or UConn.

Those New England schools add no value to the MAC which has a tight geography that doesn't fit in New England..  The MAC would help them significantly.  It would help their budgets, give them paths to bowl games and conference championship games and allow them to use the MAC as a stepping stone to a better conference or at worst bring stability and competitiveness to the program.

There is no reason for us to bail them out.  UConn didn't want to bring their basketball teams to MAC schools.  That would have made the terms more interesting.  UMass didn't want to join the conference.  That would have made it worth it.

They both believe they are above the MAC.  So they can sit on an island and MAC schools can choose, or decline, to schedule them OOC as it is convenient for each individual school.

[DocCas86]

Found this very detailed analysis of conference realignment.

Here is screen shot from video where he discusses pros/cons of Buffalo for AAC.

You can see his take on why we were not among final choice.  

Here are schools he compared and all variables he looked at.

[UBlearns]

Pete Thamel reporting MAC is considering expansion, namely WKU and MTSU.  Would be solid basketball adds.