WBB vs Ball State

[skrabukes]

Great 3 quarters, before running into the buzzsaw combo of (seemingly paid off) one-sided officiating and a good team. Sadly, their coach is the biggest POS in the league, causing a scuffle going through the line. Class act, as always.

 

This team is good, but definitely can't go up against officials. They're just not deep enough for that. I don't wager that teams in this league will want to play these Bulls. They go so hard to the basket. BB is definitely a good one. I wonder if Wyatt will be the next Nate Oats, waiting in the wings. He's another good one on that bench.

[Ketch22]

What happened? What did Sallee do to cause the "scuffle"?

Edited January 19, 2023 by Ketch22

[UBinMD]

Whatever that sequence was with the missed trip on Stone, the phantom foul on Perkins that mushroomed into an inexplicable intentional foul along with a Salmons phantom foul and the ladies just got out of sorts and it was like a switch going off on the Ball St players knowing they could not lose and just drained everything. You can tell the Ball St coach is a typical douche and I’m sure he said something snarky. Wyatt jumped in after something he heard and one of the Bulls not in uniform had to be pulled away by Perkins. Not a great end and I feel back for the team as they were definitely playing 5 on 8 the last 8 minutes. Up until then Ball St wanted no part of our Bulls.

[bullsbball]

I saw absolutely nothing on the intentional foul and it was right in front of me.   

I think it was Burke that said something to Sallee and not the other way around. Burke just kept walking away after the "handshake" and Sallee was trying to go after her.

Also, as Sallee was leaving the court, a UB fan kept yelling at him that UB won the MAC last year.

Let me also add that video replays on the scoreboard are few and far between. For the intentional foul, they just replayed the trip part a couple times (which took place 15 seconds before) and not the intentional foul.  Extremely few replays are shown. Sometimes I feel like I'd rather watch it on TV.

I also found it odd that when the officials came out after halftime, they immediately went to the video replay to look at something. Not sure what they were looking at or why it took a locker room discussion amongst to refs to initiate it?

All-in-all, a very ugly finish to a game that was close most of the way. UB was tied near the start of the 4th quarter and to end up losing by 22. They just ran out of "spunk".

Edited January 19, 2023 by bullsbball

[John]

4 hours ago, UBinMD said:

Whatever that sequence was with the missed trip on Stone, the phantom foul on Perkins that mushroomed into an inexplicable intentional foul along with a Salmons phantom foul and the ladies just got out of sorts and it was like a switch going off on the Ball St players knowing they could not lose and just drained everything. You can tell the Ball St coach is a typical douche and I’m sure he said something snarky. Wyatt jumped in after something he heard and one of the Bulls not in uniform had to be pulled away by Perkins. Not a great end and I feel back for the team as they were definitely playing 5 on 8 the last 8 minutes. Up until then Ball St wanted no part of our Bulls.

UB played with a lot of energy and held their own until the 4th quarter against one of the better and experienced teams in the MAC despite the antics of their coach. This is typical of a coach who until the 4th quarter was not his typical self with the officials. Once the 4th quarter started he was in the ears of the refs during play and especially timeouts. The sad part of all this this is his style and it is a sad commentary on the MAC and their officials. Whatever happened for the officials walking away from a coach like they did when Coach Burke tried talking to the refs. I talked to one of the Ball State father’s of one of the players and he just shook his head and this is typical of Sallee and until the MAC stops all his bickering and badgering of refs nothing will change. Another case of Alnutt not doing his job and doing something about the MAC officiating.  Looking forward to the game Friday and also seeing how the women respond on the road Saturday. Go Bulls!!!

[UBinMD]

20 minutes ago, John said:

UB played with a lot of energy and held their own until the 4th quarter against one of the better and experienced teams in the MAC despite the antics of their coach. This is typical of a coach who until the 4th quarter was not his typical self with the officials. Once the 4th quarter started he was in the ears of the refs during play and especially timeouts. The sad part of all this this is his style and it is a sad commentary on the MAC and their officials. Whatever happened for the officials walking away from a coach like they did when Coach Burke tried talking to the refs. I talked to one of the Ball State father’s of one of the players and he just shook his head and this is typical of Sallee and until the MAC stops all his bickering and badgering of refs nothing will change. Another case of Alnutt not doing his job and doing something about the MAC officiating.  Looking forward to the game Friday and also seeing how the women respond on the road Saturday. Go Bulls!!!

Seems like UB never gets good officiating in any sport when the MAC is involved regardless if we are home or away. Are they still bent we actually have won championships even though we aren't a "legacy" program from the 50s? One of my many beefs with this conference as a whole.

Edited January 19, 2023 by UBinMD

[BrooklynBull]

I was unable to see the game, so I will not comment on the officials last night.  That being said they are NOT MAC officials.  This is not football.  In basketball officials can and do work multiple conferences.  They may be "approved" by the MAC but they are not exclusively MAC officials.

Last Saturday, Gene Steratore's (CBS' in house ref) brother worked the UB game.  He has also worked Big 10 games.  He has worked games played in the Ivy League.

There are officials that will work multiple games in a day and up to four games over a weekend if geography and game times work.

[BullBoy]

I think we are sensitive to the calls that go against us, but to be honest officiating is just not good in general.  The MAC's big problem is the days we play games, which is usually the same day as the Big Ten plays... This goes for both men's and women's basketball.  The MAC should play more games on Fridays and Sundays and they would probably get better officials who are looking for a game on an off night.

You also have to remember, most of these officials are based out of Ohio and Michigan and they get paid the same amount of money whether they have to drive one hour to a a game or travel seven hours to a game in Buffalo, and with them paying travel, they end up making less money to come here.

[bullsbball]

1 hour ago, John said:

Another case of Alnutt not doing his job and doing something about the MAC officiating. 

How do we know what Allnutt has done or hasn't? We aren't in his office or have a wire-tap on his phone.

When I was leaving through the east exit (towards the refs and visiting locker rooms), I was told Allnut was behind us. When I looked back, he was gone. Not sure where he was going and/if he changed his mind. Probably not a good idea to have a hallway "conversation".

[John]

26 minutes ago, bullsbball said:

How do we know what Allnutt has done or hasn't? We aren't in his office or have a wire-tap on his phone.

When I was leaving through the east exit (towards the refs and visiting locker rooms), I was told Allnut was behind us. When I looked back, he was gone. Not sure where he was going and/if he changed his mind. Probably not a good idea to have a hallway "conversation".

Not sure that is true. The officiating hasn’t changed for years for the better but I guess there is always hope.

[John]

5 minutes ago, John said:

Not sure that is true. The officiating hasn’t changed for years for the better but I guess there is always hope.

A question?? Is there still someone at the game that critiques the officials during the game. Do they see tapes of the games and shown their bad and good calls so they can maybe learn anything. 

[bullsbball]

16 minutes ago, John said:

A question?? Is there still someone at the game that critiques the officials during the game. Do they see tapes of the games and shown their bad and good calls so they can maybe learn anything. 

There used to be "press row" in the first row of the South sections but many years ago now they moved that row to the top of the South sections. When I look there during halftime, now, I rarely see anybody sitting there. There used to be signs on the seats with who sits there.  Buffalo News, Spectrum, AP, MAC official. Not any more.

I'm sure everybody now watches the video feed (live or taped). 

I believe I've also seen the Video Replay person give something (a copy of the game?) to the officials after the game. Haven't seen this recently, however.

Also, I've been going to UB games for 20 years. EVERY year (on this board), is complaints about the officials and lack of attendance while students are on break.

About the officiating, I've just given up trying to understand the calls. Give 3 guys (or women) a whistle and everybody wants to blow them to get attention.

Edited January 19, 2023 by bullsbball

[bullsbball]

3 hours ago, bullsbball said:

I think it was Burke that said something to Sallee and not the other way around. Burke just kept walking away after the "handshake" and Sallee was trying to go after her.

I stand corrected. Looks like Sallee went after Burke but Burke might have said something off camera:
Burke Sallee Video

Edited January 19, 2023 by bullsbball

[UBinMD]

28 minutes ago, bullsbball said:

I stand corrected. Looks like Sallee went after Burke:
Burke Sallee Video

The Ball St parents must be so proud that this is the guy they have influencing their daughters. I'm not sure if Wyatt was jumping due to something he said about/toward Burke or if it was to pull away the UB player (not in uniform) that seems to be getting pulled away.

[ChubbyHubby]

I had this conversation just other day about some of the officials.  Some seem to think that the fans are there to watch them, and not the game.  I once went to a game at the arena where I sat behind 3 officials that never said a word about the playing of the game.  Their entire conversation was comments like, "he missed that one", "should have been offensive", "that was a makeup call"... throughout the entire game.  I asked them after the game if they were there as supervisors evaluating the officials.  When they said, "no", I asked them if they even watched the players.  The following week, one of them was an official at one of my games.  We talked about it, and had a good laugh.  He said he didn't even realize they were doing that.

[John]

2 hours ago, bullsbball said:

There used to be "press row" in the first row of the South sections but many years ago now they moved that row to the top of the South sections. When I look there during halftime, now, I rarely see anybody sitting there. There used to be signs on the seats with who sits there.  Buffalo News, Spectrum, AP, MAC official. Not any more.

I'm sure everybody now watches the video feed (live or taped). 

I believe I've also seen the Video Replay person give something (a copy of the game?) to the officials after the game. Haven't seen this recently, however.

Also, I've been going to UB games for 20 years. EVERY year (on this board), is complaints about the officials and lack of attendance while students are on break.

About the officiating, I've just given up trying to understand the calls. Give 3 guys (or women) a whistle and everybody wants to blow them to get attention.

Do agree. I go on this tangent just once a year and my brothers tell me there is nothing we can do about it and we should not let it ruin our enjoyment of seeing our team play basketball. We have to try and think we are blessed to be able to see basketball that we love. 

[John]

1 hour ago, bullsbball said:

I stand corrected. Looks like Sallee went after Burke but Burke might have said something off camera:
Burke Sallee Video

Thanks for the video. I can only wonder if Coach Burke said something to the effect that Sallee is a whining baby because she had a front row seat on how he acts on the sideline. All the years of seeing him and the Ball State parent I talked too said that is who he is. I would think only the officials could curtain this be not listening to him or warn him about it. 

[bullsbball]

2 minutes ago, John said:

I would think only the officials could curtain this be not listening to him or warn him about it. 

We all remember Bobby Hurley when he was here.  The King of complaining to the officials. He was a little more vociferous. I was always interested in the over-under on how many Technicals he'd get in a game.

[dj_paige]

The intentional foul on Perkins is a textbook example of what an intentional foul is. Perkins wasn't playing defense and she wasn't playing the ball. She reached out with her right arm and grabbed a BSU player who was ahead of her, and who was running full speed towards the basket. This grab caused the BSU player to slow down and lose her balance. Good call by the refs. If you want to see it, it is at 6:37 and 6:36 left in the 4Q.

[John]

2 hours ago, dj_paige said:

The intentional foul on Perkins is a textbook example of what an intentional foul is. Perkins wasn't playing defense and she wasn't playing the ball. She reached out with her right arm and grabbed a BSU player who was ahead of her, and who was running full speed towards the basket. This grab caused the BSU player to slow down and lose her balance. Good call by the refs. If you want to see it, it is at 6:37 and 6:36 left in the 4Q.

I don’t have video of the play so I will have to take your call on it. There were many calls in the quarter that were questionable but again the bottom line is we did not have many good possessions and Ball State got hot to close the game. Amazing though after Ball State went on their run Sallee shut his mouth to the officials and after the game was out of reach the officials made several calls against Ball State. 

[John]

3 hours ago, bullsbball said:

We all remember Bobby Hurley when he was here.  The King of complaining to the officials. He was a little more vociferous. I was always interested in the over-under on how many Technicals he'd get in a game.

I remember that was the talk among many of us in games. Good case in point was during the season he was T’d up several times and had warnings. We remember during the first MAC game in Cleveland not sure what year the beginning of a game he said something to an official at the start of a game and he was immediately T’d up. Funny when a coach like Sallee has a similar reputation and nothing happens. Such is life in the official paternity. 

[dj_paige]

12 hours ago, John said:

I don’t have video of the play so I will have to take your call on it. There were many calls in the quarter that were questionable but again the bottom line is we did not have many good possessions and Ball State got hot to close the game. Amazing though after Ball State went on their run Sallee shut his mouth to the officials and after the game was out of reach the officials made several calls against Ball State. 

Yes, had the bad calls in the fourth quarter been spread out throughout the game, much less would be made of it. Certainly the intentional foul was surrounded by several bad calls, all against Buffalo, I agree with that.

As far as Sallee goes, once your up by 20 late in the fourth quarter, I think all coaches pretty much shut up at that point in time. Not really anything unusual there. And as far as equating Hurley and Sallee, I can't really agree ... I don't know what Sallee said to the officials, and I don't know what Hurley said to the officials, but sitting in the stands, I felt that Hurley's gestures, body language and facial expressions were often nasty and insulting towards the officials, whereas I don't see that from most coaches (including Sallee, including FLJ, including BB, including Oats, including Reggie, including Whitesell, including Linda Hill-McDonald). Hurley was an outlier.

[ChubbyHubby]

Outlier?  Embarrassment is a better word, when it came to his antics.  I loved that we were winning, though.

[bullsbball]

I couldn't agree more. Whatever Sallee said to the officials about the intentional foul, he did it "nicely" and "quietly". Coach Burke probably felt they were "only" listening to him. And he seemed to win his case.  Probably an immature reaction on her part. I'm sure she said something to him (unprofessionally) in the handshake line that cause him to go back at her. Coach Burke probably could have handled that better.

Hurley, on the other hand, was usually very vocal towards the officials. Saw a month ago, Hurley was tossed with a double technical in one game.

As I've said before, from where I was sitting, I didn't see anything related to the Intentional Foul. Not saying it didn't happen. I just didn't see it. I assume the officials saw something since they went to the video replay. They wouldn't have just made it up. It would have been nice to see a replay in the Arena for the fans to judge.

 

[John]

3 hours ago, dj_paige said:

Yes, had the bad calls in the fourth quarter been spread out throughout the game, much less would be made of it. Certainly the intentional foul was surrounded by several bad calls, all against Buffalo, I agree with that.

As far as Sallee goes, once your up by 20 late in the fourth quarter, I think all coaches pretty much shut up at that point in time. Not really anything unusual there. And as far as equating Hurley and Sallee, I can't really agree ... I don't know what Sallee said to the officials, and I don't know what Hurley said to the officials, but sitting in the stands, I felt that Hurley's gestures, body language and facial expressions were often nasty and insulting towards the officials, whereas I don't see that from most coaches (including Sallee, including FLJ, including BB, including Oats, including Reggie, including Whitesell, including Linda Hill-McDonald). Hurley was an outlier.

I do agree that Hurley was an entirely different situation and do agree Sallee is usually more controlled but the difference I have seen is Sallee just stays on the officials and doesn’t let up. It is up to the officials to say enough is enough and walk away from him.  Do agree after a coach has the game in hand there is no advantage to continuallly badger the officials and it was more frustration on my part.  Sallee is not the only one and will not be the last to do anything as a coach to get an advantage for his team. As a player and a coach many years ago I don’t agree with that philosophy.