Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[C1ubP1fanaticM7]

13 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

This is why "just give him a chance" doesn't play out. Mediocrity left us with no donor base, no energy from the department and no interest in the job. What a travesty of a hire (they I desperately wanted to defend)

You know, I was one of those people who, while I wasn’t happy with the hire, felt like we give him four years to figure it out. I was absolutely wrong. His tenure devalued the head coaching position here. Really unfortunate.

[trueblue32]

1 minute ago, C1ubP1fanaticM7 said:

You know, I was one of those people who, while I wasn’t happy with the hire, felt like we give him four years to figure it out. I was absolutely wrong. His tenure devalued the head coaching position here. Really unfortunate.

I don't know if it devalued the position itself. Good candidates were taking interviews. We still need to be able to pay good candidates. There are other good positions that will also pay well.

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

Talk about beating a dead horse with "my boy". We can go circles here, but when he boarded that plane, he wasn't my top choice for the job. It's Hodgson by the way, it's not really that hard to spell that right (as you used to knock me for calling him "coach B"). 

I said it three years ago, Whitesell would be a failing head coach, so much so that the university fired him early and took another 100k hit.  You can send me all that you want on the team's "rebuild". He was a terrible hire that set the team back many years. A freefall is not a must. What happened to the Kent State freefall? 

I knew I could count on you to circle back to try your best to call it the right hire. After all, being paid by UB athletics has its duties on here. 

Whitesell was the correct hire.

You're using Kent State as your proof?  You mean you're using an example from 20 years ago, before the transfer portal was created and using that as proof that players wouldn't have left a team after the transfer portal was created making it much easier for players to transfer?  You know the players said they wanted Whitesell as their coach, right?

Buffalo didn't have an Honorable Mention All-American (Antonio Gates) that couldn't transfer (since Kent State was his fourth school) which was the key to Kent State being a top-100 program the season after Stan Heath left Kent State.  That is a pretty significant key to their program not falling off...

Of course, you continue to claim I must work for the school since I agree that it was the right call.  And as I have always told you, I don't work for the school.  Whitesell was the correct hire.  It created stability within the program.  That's what mid-majors need to build long term success.  

 

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

"the sky isn't falling. The program is in good hands"

LOL

I'd take your losses or no one takes you seriously. 

The program was in good hands.  This year's team didn't perform (as well as happened multiple other times over the previous few years) and it was time to make a change.  

The program wasn't ran into the ground.  No matter what you want to argue.

[Kevin]

2 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Whitesell was the correct hire.

You're using Kent State as your proof?  You mean you're using an example from 20 years ago, before the transfer portal was created and using that as proof that players wouldn't have left a team after the transfer portal was created making it much easier for players to transfer?  You know the players said they wanted Whitesell as their coach, right?

Buffalo didn't have an Honorable Mention All-American (Antonio Gates) that couldn't transfer (since Kent State was his fourth school) which was the key to Kent State being a top-100 program the season after Stan Heath left Kent State.  That is a pretty significant key to their program not falling off...

Of course, you continue to claim I must work for the school since I agree that it was the right call.  And as I have always told you, I don't work for the school.  Whitesell was the correct hire.  It created stability within the program.  That's what mid-majors need to build long term success.  

 

I think you do.  You signed up in the fall of 2015 right after the Oats administration took over and named Whitesell the associate head coach. Where were you during the Reggie and Bobby days? You are too educated to just randomly decide to pick up and discuss UB basketball at this level right after the Whitesell era began. You are connected to the Whitesell staff. Just own it, there is nothing wrong with it at this point. There is not a single person left that defends or thinks this was a good hire. 

Who am I allowed to use? Ohio? Boals dug that team out after their previous failed coaching hire. He's won a postseason game after Saul Phillips debacle. The team continues to invest in that program. 

5 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

The program was in good hands.  This year's team didn't perform (as well as happened multiple other times over the previous few years) and it was time to make a change.  

The program wasn't ran into the ground.  No matter what you want to argue.

How was it not? Our top three choices are declining the job. They can't get a D2 coach or low-major coach to take the position. It was run into the ground with bad Xs and Os and bad recruiting and now a declining attendance base, no NIL money, and a growingly frustrated donor base. if you think Hodgson is "my boy" you might want to check with one of the biggest donor families in the community double-downing on supporting him. That might be a better place to start than your wrong claims on my affiliations. I care about what's right for this university, not a specific coach either way. 

The program was not in good hands. Allowing your players to play however they wanted in game was not in good hands. That's what lead to this thread starting. He certainly couldn't even keep his own players after Oats' initial classes. Williams/Segu had an extra year. Skogman, Fagan and Mballa left. What happened to the "he can keep people" skill? 

We know he got hired because he kept Williams and Segu. That equaled a losing MAC tournament record. Where was the supplement to Oats and Hodgson's recruiting class? Thats right, they had to forge documents under Jim to even score Mballa and fired their coach equalling NCAA penalties, on top of having a stabbing during an unsanctioned Caniusus pickup game that got a player kicked off the team. A pretty clean ship I'd say. 

No one would say this was a good or right hire. 

[dutchcountry7]

33 minutes ago, Kevin said:

I think you do.  You signed up in the fall of 2015 right after the Oats administration took over and named Whitesell the associate head coach. Where were you during the Reggie and Bobby days? You are too educated to just randomly decide to pick up and discuss UB basketball at this level right after the Whitesell era began. You are connected to the Whitesell staff. Just own it, there is nothing wrong with it at this point. There is not a single person left that defends or thinks this was a good hire. 

Who am I allowed to use? Ohio? Boals dug that team out after their previous failed coaching hire. He's won a postseason game after Saul Phillips debacle. The team continues to invest in that program. 

How was it not? Our top three choices are declining the job. They can't get a D2 coach or low-major coach to take the position. It was run into the ground with bad Xs and Os and bad recruiting and now a declining attendance base, no NIL money, and a growingly frustrated donor base. if you think Hodgson is "my boy" you might want to check with one of the biggest donor families in the community double-downing on supporting him. That might be a better place to start than your wrong claims on my affiliations. I care about what's right for this university, not a specific coach either way. 

The program was not in good hands. Allowing your players to play however they wanted in game was not in good hands. That's what lead to this thread starting. He certainly couldn't even keep his own players after Oats' initial classes. Williams/Segu had an extra year. Skogman, Fagan and Mballa left. What happened to the "he can keep people" skill? 

We know he got hired because he kept Williams and Segu. That equaled a losing MAC tournament record. Where was the supplement to Oats and Hodgson's recruiting class? Thats right, they had to forge documents under Jim to even score Mballa and fired their coach equalling NCAA penalties, on top of having a stabbing during an unsanctioned Caniusus pickup game that got a player kicked off the team. A pretty clean ship I'd say. 

No one would say this was a good or right hire. 

Ha ha.  Thanks for the complements but I am not connected to Whitesell. 

When I posted that the program was in good hands it was January 8, 2020.  That's the comment you quoted.  We had started the MAC season 0-2 and you and others like you were talking about the sky falling.  We finished 11-7 in the MAC and 148 in KenPom.  It wasn't a horrible season.  It was disappointing to lose first round as the 5 seed but it was not a horrible season.

So maybe the next season was all doom and gloom?  Well, covid did shorten the season...  But I wouldn't call finishing 2nd in the MAC, Runner-up in the MAC tournament, and playing in the NIT a bad season.  Sure, I wanted to beat Colorado State in the NIT too... but losing by two to a bubble team that makes the NIT semi-finals isn't a poor performance.  Finishing 77 in KenPom is pretty good.

And the following year?  More doom and gloom?  Well, I wouldn't call 19-11 (13-6 MAC) a poor season even if it felt that way since the team was good enough to win the MAC tournament (lost by two to eventual champion always hurts).

The program was stable and in good hands.  

Was it time for a change?  Absolutely.  But Whitesell was the right hire to make when he was hired.  And the program was absolutely in good hands in Jan 2020.

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, trueblue32 said:

I don't know if it devalued the position itself. Good candidates were taking interviews. We still need to be able to pay good candidates. There are other good positions that will also pay well.

It didn't devalue the position.  It strengthened the position.  Which is why there have been really good candidates interested.  There is something else that is causing issues with closing the deal with good candidates.

[Kevin]

12 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Ha ha.  Thanks for the complements but I am not connected to Whitesell. 

When I posted that the program was in good hands it was January 8, 2020.  That's the comment you quoted.  We had started the MAC season 0-2 and you and others like you were talking about the sky falling.  We finished 11-7 in the MAC and 148 in KenPom.  It wasn't a horrible season.  It was disappointing to lose first round as the 5 seed but it was not a horrible season.

So maybe the next season was all doom and gloom?  Well, covid did shorten the season...  But I wouldn't call finishing 2nd in the MAC, Runner-up in the MAC tournament, and playing in the NIT a bad season.  Sure, I wanted to beat Colorado State in the NIT too... but losing by two to a bubble team that makes the NIT semi-finals isn't a poor performance.  Finishing 77 in KenPom is pretty good.

And the following year?  More doom and gloom?  Well, I wouldn't call 19-11 (13-6 MAC) a poor season even if it felt that way since the team was good enough to win the MAC tournament (lost by two to eventual champion always hurts).

The program was stable and in good hands.  

Was it time for a change?  Absolutely.  But Whitesell was the right hire to make when he was hired.  And the program was absolutely in good hands in Jan 2020.

I still think you have a connection with the timing of everything. That's ok. We'll move on but I firmly believe in the connection. 

There were no results. He ended up with a 2-4 record in the tournament and went out in the first game in three of them. 

Kenpom 211 this year, lower than years under Reggie. This is also his first year without Oats' recruiting class. This was the year I knew was coming because he didn't have the recruiting chops, and struggled to fill the position. 

We may disagree on pretty much everything, but you have a very consistent 100% glass completely full mindset. You certainly do your best to polish a turd. 

[clodney]

Whitesell was not the right hire. End. Of. Story.

[Kevin]

23 minutes ago, clodney said:

Whitesell was not the right hire. End. Of. Story.

I've tried to get through to him for 3 years. 

[BrooklynBull]

3 hours ago, Jeseph said:

This is why "just give him a chance" doesn't play out. Mediocrity left us with no donor base, no energy from the department and no interest in the job. What a travesty of a hire (they I desperately wanted to defend)

As someone who has been donating, mostly to football, but to all sports in lower amounts, I do not care what the record is when it comes to donating.  I have seen winless seasons and a Top 25 season, the final result has never impacted donating. I am more concerned with graduating students with useful degrees than with winning.

I also have never called for the firing of a coach.  In my opinion, that is not the role on a donor, at a place like UB, and should not be anywhere else.