Daemen @ UB - 10/23 - 7 PM / Start of the GH III Era

[ChubbyHubby]

You gotta remember, there's nothing else to do in Olean.

[rma]

3 hours ago, Blue03 said:

If we mimic them, then with the funding and passion increase UB could finally grow and maybe break out of the MAC

During the height of the Hurley and Oats years it was impossible to get cell phone reception at all during games. That's mimicing Olean, NY.

We can also mimic them by not accepting cards at concession stands, having our student section harass fans, storming the court early and making their team lose, accepting transfers that only have a welding certificate, etc.

None of that I want any part of. Their university has an awful academic reputation and their men's basketball program has less NCAA tournament appearances than UB does over the last 22 years. Their Final 4 (last time they made it past the first round) and NIT banners are almost as old as Ohio U's last MAC football title. Their women's basketball program gets less support than the pre-FLJ UB WBB team did.

Say something nice about your rival: They have a good turnout on Saturday games and have a decent student turnout, which is amplified by where they sit stand in their outdated arena.
ETA: Their students stand during the game. That's one thing our students could do. In 2012 a hyped up student section made Matt Stainbrook cry after missing free throws. During the blackout game against Kent State in 2015, after the matinee rap show, True Blue made up for the lack of general public due to the 10pm start. During the Hurley and Oats years we had an overflowing student section that stood most of the time. Right now it's the band (cheer and dazzlers) and a few rows of true blue faithful.

Edited October 31, 2023 by rma
clarified that the classy bona students do not sit, but stand

[dutchcountry7]

On 10/30/2023 at 7:00 PM, ChubbyHubby said:

You gotta remember, there's nothing else to do in Olean.

These comments always annoy me.

It's akin to saying "No one comes to our games because they have better things to do."

Also, it is out of touch.  St Bona doesn't have a well resourced program and solid fan base because of the Olean community.  The majority of their season ticket holders live over an hour away from Olean and their biggest donors are nowhere near Olean.   Their former AD even lived in East Aurora, just 25 miles from Alumni arena and 60 miles from SBU's campus.  And this made sense due to so much time spent with the Buffalo arena alumni that support the program.

St Bona gets big games in NYC for instance because they sell tickets.  They have fans down there that come out.  There is a basketball culture.  That culture starts with the students.  And those students become alums.

If you need to be having national success to get people interested in your program you don't have a fan base you just have bandwagoners.  Look at Siena, they are horrible.  But they have a huge fan base.  Imagine if they were actually any good.  https://sienasaints.com/news/2022/10/27/mens-basketball-siena-basketball-leads-northeast-mid-majors-in-attendance-for-second-straight-time.aspx

UB tries to sell to the community like they are a pro sports franchise but that won't work.  It needs to be a grassroots educational community model.

[1975]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:52 AM, SGBull said:

Basketball always seems to get more engagement than football. I wonder if it is because there is no NBA team in Buffalo. But yes I agree, I love the activity. 

Could be in some small part that I can go to a BB game and be close to the court instead of sitting 100 feet or more from the action at a FB game; that I can see the BB players’ faces and recognize them on and off the court; that there are several-fold more home BB games than FB games. Basketball is by its very nature more intimate than football. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by 1975
Typo

[Blue03]

1 hour ago, 1975 said:

Could be in some small part that I can go to a BB game and be close to the court instead of sitting 100 feet or more from the action at a FB game; that I can see the BB players’ faces and recognize them on and off the court; that there are several-fold more home BB games than FB games. Basketball is by its very nature more intimate than football. 

Above 30 degrees is a plus too

[Tee4three]

5 minutes ago, Blue03 said:

Above 30 degrees is a plus too

Not a fan of 37 and rainy on a Wednesday night in November? 

[rma]

11 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

If you need to be having national success to get people interested in your program you don't have a fan base you just have bandwagoners.  Look at Siena, they are horrible.  But they have a huge fan base.  Imagine if they were actually any good.  https://sienasaints.com/news/2022/10/27/mens-basketball-siena-basketball-leads-northeast-mid-majors-in-attendance-for-second-straight-time.aspx

I grew up in the Albany area so I know this pretty well.

Siena plays in the equivalent of Keybank Center. It's far away from their campus, but central to Albany. The arena is much too big for their program, but since it has a lot of seats Siena can "sell" these tickets to boost their attendance figures. Remember the 22k we had during the Danny White years?

One good thing they do is the UAlbany vs Siena game is hyped up as the game of the year. That game is what every Big 4 game should be. But most of the support for the teams after that dwindles. It reminds me of the Bisons 4th of July game. Everybody goes to one game then nobody cares after that.

Here's some pictures. Also keep in mind that most of the time the second level is closed off, so all fans are in the 100's.

UAlbany game Saturday 7:30pm - good! https://sienasaints.com/galleries/mens-basketball/2022-mens-basketball-albany-cup/9009

The next game, Wednesday 7pm - bad! https://sienasaints.com/galleries/mens-basketball/mbb-vs-army-west-point-11-16-22-/9010

Sunday 2pm game - also bad! https://sienasaints.com/galleries/mens-basketball/siena-basketball-vs-rider-1-8-23-/9023

For comparison UB on a Saturday at 1pm last season (bad!) https://ubbulls.com/galleries/mens-basketball/mbb-vs-jmu/814

Edited November 3, 2023 by rma

[dutchcountry7]

15 hours ago, rma said:

I grew up in the Albany area so I know this pretty well.

Siena plays in the equivalent of Keybank Center. It's far away from their campus, but central to Albany. The arena is much too big for their program, but since it has a lot of seats Siena can "sell" these tickets to boost their attendance figures. Remember the 22k we had during the Danny White years?

One good thing they do is the UAlbany vs Siena game is hyped up as the game of the year. That game is what every Big 4 game should be. But most of the support for the teams after that dwindles. It reminds me of the Bisons 4th of July game. Everybody goes to one game then nobody cares after that.

Here's some pictures. Also keep in mind that most of the time the second level is closed off, so all fans are in the 100's.

UAlbany game Saturday 7:30pm - good! https://sienasaints.com/galleries/mens-basketball/2022-mens-basketball-albany-cup/9009

The next game, Wednesday 7pm - bad! https://sienasaints.com/galleries/mens-basketball/mbb-vs-army-west-point-11-16-22-/9010

Sunday 2pm game - also bad! https://sienasaints.com/galleries/mens-basketball/siena-basketball-vs-rider-1-8-23-/9023

For comparison UB on a Saturday at 1pm last season (bad!) https://ubbulls.com/galleries/mens-basketball/mbb-vs-jmu/814

Are you implying that their numbers are fabricated?  That's not the case.

The games you say are bad attendance are not bad in total numbers.  They are just a low percentage of total capacity that makes them look bad.  Similar to the Big Four games at Key Bank.  They have solid attendance compared to Big Four home venues but look empty in comparison to the large arena.

As you have said, MVP Arena in Albany is about the same size as Key Bank Arena.  So use those comparisons as a baseline.

 This is the actual attendance of the game you say is good attendance for Siena.  The Upper Section is open and the Arena is at 2/3 capacity.

Compared to our 2016 Big Four game at Key Bank Arena here:

The thing is that the attendance was actually strong in total numbers at Key Bank that day.  The problem is the venue is massive.  So while only about 1/3 of the capacity was filled, the number of people in attendance would have rivaled a sellout at Alumni Arena.

For comparison, here is a game you said is bad attendance for Siena.  This was their lowest attendance of the year (Army West Point):

This game where the attendance was so poor, as you say, is still really strong attendance.  One third of the arena is filled with fans in the end-zones and filled along the sidelines on the lower bowl.

It is their worst attendance of the year and it would be a packed Alumni Arena.

The game that you say is good attendance (UAlbany) would have filled two Alumni Arenas.   While the game you said was poor attendance on a weeknight would have been a packed Alumni Arena.

Siena's strong fan base is the reason the MAAC has held the conference tournament in Albany so many times in the last 20 years.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAAC_men's_basketball_tournament#List_of_finals

Siena has a much stronger fan base than we do.  And they do it without an on-campus arena.   

Edited November 3, 2023 by dutchcountry7

[rma]

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Are you implying that their numbers are fabricated?

Yes. I am saying that they don't nearly get the 6-7k that is normally reported as their attendance figures.

The entire lower bowl of the MVP arena is 6,106 seats (paywalled source, but you can google it https://www.bizjournals.com/albany/news/2023/10/05/mvp-arena-upgrades-new-seats.html)

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

The game that you say is good attendance (UAlbany) would have filled two Alumni Arenas.   While the game you said was poor attendance on a weeknight would have been a packed Alumni Arena.

The good attendance one would have filled Alumni Arena (modern record 6,709) and maybe left some people not able to get in. Even the announced attendance of 9,561 is just over an Alumni Arena and a half (6,100 seats + 3,050).

That being said, any Big 4 game should completely sell out when any of the teams are playing each other. What Siena and UAlbany do for that game is what we and the L3 should strive for.

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This game where the attendance was so poor, as you say, is still really strong attendance.  One third of the arena is filled with fans in the end-zones and filled along the sidelines on the lower bowl.

It is their worst attendance of the year and it would be a packed Alumni Arena.

I can't get a good wide picture of the seats there so I found a few of other Siena games. Their actual attendance outside of the UAlbany game is similar to ours.

Siena vs Fairfield 2022, announced attendance of 4,918 (Sunday 2pm)

Siena vs Iona 2022, announced attendance of 6,383 (Friday 9pm ESPNU)

This is from the article you linked earlier and is probably the best shot of a non-UAlbany game. Behind the benches are 70-90% full, opposite side closest to photographer is about 50-60% full. So around 4k total?

Siena vs Niagara 2023, announced attendance of 7,121 (Sunday 2pm)

This looks about 60% full, but we saw in the last picture these are the more full sections, so a little bit lower than the Iona game. 3,500?

On the UB side, here's us getting walloped by Akron on a Tuesday night last year. This is the widest shot I have from last year and I doubt UB was posting a lot of wide angle pictures.

We announced attendance of 5,001. Actual attendance maybe 3k?

Here's the Friday night game against Kent State ESPN2

Announced attendance was 4,207. I think we're probably around 3,000-3,500, with a larger than normal amount of that being students.

We're right around where Siena is. Siena has a disadvantage as you said since their arena is off campus and they don't control it. You also have to pay to park there. We're competing with an NHL team, but have a huge alumni advantage and are a much larger school.

[dutchcountry7]

2 hours ago, rma said:

Yes. I am saying that they don't nearly get the 6-7k that is normally reported as their attendance figures.

The entire lower bowl of the MVP arena is 6,106 seats (paywalled source, but you can google it https://www.bizjournals.com/albany/news/2023/10/05/mvp-arena-upgrades-new-seats.html)

This is not correct and this source is what your whole premise is based on.

These are lower bowl permanent seats. 

Do you think that the Arena has more upper deck seats than lower bowl seats?  You really think an arena would be designed to put the majority of the fans in the upper deck?  Do you honestly think that when you look at the arena pictures there are more seats in the upper deck than the lower bowl?

For the basketball configuration there are expandable seats that pull out beyond the fixed permanent seats to expand the capacity.  These are used in basketball and also used in ice hockey.  It allows the arena to have a larger floor space for events like monster trucks or conventions.  They also add floor seats for the basketball configuration making it have a greater seating capacity than ice hockey.  The lower bowl is just shy of 8,000 capacity.  You can request the Venue's promoter's packet if you don't believe me.

You provided a lot of pictures of games and broke out your estimated attendance by section claiming that only about 70% of the seats were claimed in all of the lower bowl seats to try to say that Siena is lying about their numbers.

Could you tell me what 70% of the actual lower bowl capacity which is a little shy of 8,000 would be?  Seems to be right in line with their reported attendance figures for those games.  Yes, you may have a game from time to time where the tickets sold result in a much higher attendance being reported than buts in the seats such as when there are snow storms. But Siena's figures are solid.  They don't inflate their numbers.

This is Siena's second best attended game last season when they hosted Iona.  Yes, there were some empty seats around the arena in the lower bowl.  But they also open sections of the upper decks to accommodate the increased capacity when needed, such as with this game.  The reported attendance of 7,801 is consistent with the pictures.

 

I am not really sure what your point in arguing all this is exactly... are you just trying to say that Siena doesn't have more fans that support their program than we do?  Because that isn't debatable.  They absolutely do.  

 

[DocCas86]

39 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This is not correct and this source is what your whole premise is based on.

These are lower bowl permanent seats. 

Do you think that the Arena has more upper deck seats than lower bowl seats?  You really think an arena would be designed to put the majority of the fans in the upper deck?  Do you honestly think that when you look at the arena pictures there are more seats in the upper deck than the lower bowl?

For the basketball configuration there are expandable seats that pull out beyond the fixed permanent seats to expand the capacity.  These are used in basketball and also used in ice hockey.  It allows the arena to have a larger floor space for events like monster trucks or conventions.  They also add floor seats for the basketball configuration making it have a greater seating capacity than ice hockey.  The lower bowl is just shy of 8,000 capacity.  You can request the Venue's promoter's packet if you don't believe me.

You provided a lot of pictures of games and broke out your estimated attendance by section claiming that only about 70% of the seats were claimed in all of the lower bowl seats to try to say that Siena is lying about their numbers.

Could you tell me what 70% of the actual lower bowl capacity which is a little shy of 8,000 would be?  Seems to be right in line with their reported attendance figures for those games.  Yes, you may have a game from time to time where the tickets sold result in a much higher attendance being reported than buts in the seats such as when there are snow storms. But Siena's figures are solid.  They don't inflate their numbers.

This is Siena's second best attended game last season when they hosted Iona.  Yes, there were some empty seats around the arena in the lower bowl.  But they also open sections of the upper decks to accommodate the increased capacity when needed, such as with this game.  The reported attendance of 7,801 is consistent with the pictures.

 

I am not really sure what your point in arguing all this is exactly... are you just trying to say that Siena doesn't have more fans that support their program than we do?  Because that isn't debatable.  They absolutely do.  

 

I would be curious for theories as to why Siena has more support given they have a much smaller enrollment ~3,500 and the results for Siena have not been anything to write home about

They are projected by Kenpom to be eighth best in the MAAC for 2023-24, the second time in past three years.

[BrooklynBull]

Can we stop arguing over Siena basketball attendance.  Who cares?

[rma]

15 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This is not correct and this source is what your whole premise is based on.

These are lower bowl permanent seats. 

The information comes directly from the bid that Albany county put out for the replacement of the seats. Don’t know how I can otherwise prove the seating capacity. 

15 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

are you just trying to say that Siena doesn't have more fans that support their program than we do?  Because that isn't debatable.  They absolutely do.  

Yes I am. I’ve lived in both regions for over a decade. Siena has about as much local support as UAlbany does. But evidently they do a good job of marketing their brand online because of the whole premise of this back and forth.

 

13 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

Can we stop arguing over Siena basketball attendance.  Who cares?

Don’t see anybody talking bulls here, why not argue with internet strangers about something completely irrelevant and unimportant 

[dutchcountry7]

5 hours ago, rma said:

The information comes directly from the bid that Albany county put out for the replacement of the seats.

I told you, these are the permanent seats not the full lower bowl.

 

5 hours ago, rma said:

Don’t know how I can otherwise prove the seating capacity.  

I told you how you can get the actual figures.  Get the MVP Arena promoters packet.  It has full documentation that will tell you what I am saying is accurate.

Since you didn't do that, I will do it for you.

The below image is the recommended basketball seating configuration for MVP Arena from page 39 of the arena's promoter's packet.  

The seats in green are the permanent seats.  The ones you were talking about being renovated.  The seats in red as the expandable seats that augment the lower bowl's seating capacity and give flexibility to the arena's function.  The back seats are additional floor seating that are added to the arena during basketball games.  

The green seats (~6,000) with the red seats (~1,250) and the black seats (~600) is a little shy of 8,000 lower bowl seats, as I said.

 

5 hours ago, rma said:

Yes I am. I’ve lived in both regions for over a decade. Siena has about as much local support as UAlbany does. But evidently they do a good job of marketing their brand online because of the whole premise of this back and forth.

 

Siena's basketball fan base is larger than Buffalo's.  That is a fact.  They draw more fans to their games regularly while being off campus and harder for students to get to the games.   They also do it while putting an inferiors product on the floor.   That is a testament to their fan base.

You may see more bumper stickers on cars that say UAlbany than Siena but that would be expected given the massive size difference.  That however does not have anything to do with the people who pay money and show up to watch the basketball teams compete.  

Siena has buts in the seats and those people pay for that privilege.  They aren't getting tickets for free and showing up.  

 

[dutchcountry7]

23 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

I would be curious for theories as to why Siena has more support given they have a much smaller enrollment ~3,500 and the results for Siena have not been anything to write home about

They are projected by Kenpom to be eighth best in the MAAC for 2023-24, the second time in past three years.

I honestly don't know.  They moved out of their on campus arena around 97.  They had some good runs around the early 2000s but haven't been good in a while.  They should have been losing fans over the last ten years.  They have not had anywhere near the success of UB and they have had much more coaching turn over.  

Their fans have been loyal.

It probably helps that it is a quality arena.  So having a comfortable viewing experience and full-time food vendors likely give a better experience than they would be able to provide in their own arena.

The size of the venue and the ability to flex probably has been a real benefit too.  Selling out a venue can actually hamper the fan experience by shutting would be fans out.  They are able to flex their capacity by opening the upper level seating.  So when there is a spike in draw they can accommodate those fans.  It is likely that some of those fans will buy another ticket at another date due to the experience of the game they were able to get in to see.

They clearly do a really good job of keeping their fans interested and invested.

This was the point I was trying to make.  While we want to excel and be playing in the NCAA tournament regularly, there has been a view expressed here often that if we aren't producing successful teams then we shouldn't expect people to come to the games.  

I believe that is wrong.  It is a problem to over sell the success and make that the reason to attend games.  You're telling your prospective customers that they should be coming because of the rare high level performance.  People will naturally be drawn to that.  You don't need to sell that.  What you sell is why they should come to a game.  Period.  Why they should come when the team is playing Saint John Fischer.  Why you should come when they are below .500.   You sell the experience.  You build a community around that experience.

It is much easier to do this within a collegiate model than a pro-model because you have the identity with the school.  

This is the reason people were upset with the branding of "New York" as they saw Buffalo as the local and school brand.  But you need to sell the importance of that.  If the School is Buffalo and you value your affiliation with Buffalo then you don't need to be successful to be able to show up and support your team.

Siena has found success with building a fan base that supports them even when they are not great.   That's what we should have.  

[dutchcountry7]

22 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

Can we stop arguing over Siena basketball attendance.  Who cares?

Siena is an important model.

I have often felt that our marketing and fan engagement has missed the mark.

Why does Siena have so much support?  It isn't simply the market.  Because if that were the case then UAlbany would have a solid fan base.  But they don't have the fan support in the same market.

It ruffled some feathers when I pointed out Siena's level of fan support.  But it is a reality.  I don't believe there is any reason UB can't have that support.  But our administrations have often thought in seasons rather than years.  When you have aspirations of using UB as a stepping stone you think about short term wins.  While this can be great for things like making bold coaching hires that can really pay off, it also often results in a lack of long term investment in the fan base.

The reality is that you have to invest in your fan base and it is easier to do when you're at a school like Siena or St. Bona where a lot of people are intending to stay long term.  At UB we get more ambitious professionals.  And that can actually hold us back in some areas.

[rma]

18 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

The green seats (~6,000) with the red seats (~1,250) and the black seats (~600) is a little shy of 8,000 lower bowl seats, as I said.

The red seats are not used for Siena games between 110-115 and 125-130. And the black seats are not set up in that configuration for Siena games either. There's about 4-6 rows of students and band on one side and on the other side it's donor seating (100 max). So okay, let's add a few hundred to the previous estimates, it doesn't change my point.

I could pull more data quantifying fan bases but at this point I'm not convincing you and you aren't convincing me. Go Bulls.

[dutchcountry7]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:18 AM, rma said:

The red seats are not used for Siena games between 110-115 and 125-130. And the black seats are not set up in that configuration for Siena games either. There's about 4-6 rows of students and band on one side and on the other side it's donor seating (100 max). So okay, let's add a few hundred to the previous estimates, it doesn't change my point.

I could pull more data quantifying fan bases but at this point I'm not convincing you and you aren't convincing me. Go Bulls.

So now you agree that your figure for lower bowl seating was incorrect.

Rather than continuing with the back and forth where you start counting each individual seat and validating a body in the seat, I have to again say...

On 11/3/2023 at 4:20 PM, dutchcountry7 said:

I am not really sure what your point in arguing all this is exactly... are you just trying to say that Siena doesn't have more fans that support their program than we do?  Because that isn't debatable.  They absolutely do.  

We are talking about UB Basketball here.  

My point is that Siena has more fan support.  They get more buts in the seats than we get and they do it with an inferior product.

Are you trying to dispute that and say that UB gets more fans at games than Siena?