Coaching Search 2023 Edition

[DooleyBull06]

1 minute ago, rma said:

Do you think when the football team tries to sell a recruit on UB the recruit is going to be fine with the stadium that is worse than his high school’s in Texas because he’s getting a little extra money to pick UB?

To be honest, yes. Throw a little more money at a kid than he’s getting offered from other schools and that kid won’t care what stadium looks like. As long as he can shine on instagram. Flaunt the NIL deal and make plays on the field. As I said in my other post, given the information regarding the basketball side of things and NIL, it makes me wonder how the football team is alive. But money talks. Kids want money. It’s 2023. All this is on the table now. No longer behind the scenes. Come to the light UB.

[Jeseph]

1 minute ago, MuchMany said:

I know this isn't the best time for this, but the last four years the team was actually pretty exciting (featuring three years of Rondo Jeenathan, two of Graves, one of Davonta) and went 70-49. Underachieving, frustrating, unable to live up to the astronomical standards of Oats? For sure. But we're getting a bit revisionist. In that interview I posted recently, even Oats expressed serious doubt that they could maintain the standard. 

We've had players that flash excitement. We've had games that flash excitement (I was at the Ball State game in Muncie and thought "hey, maybe I can get behind this team). We have not had an exciting team (one that makes you think they can win games of consequence) in 4 years.

IMO there's a difference between a fan like you who understands the game and can see potential in statistical categories like efficiency and then there is the general public/donor base that says "I want to support a winning program". We are currently seeing what happens when the latter is left unsatisfied.

[DooleyBull06]

7 minutes ago, enrique14150 said:

These guys who are D2 coaches or assistants in D1 would rather sit where they are than step up a level, do the work and make something better of themselves?  Fine, pass.  This level is a challenge.  If they're not up for it, we'll find someone who is.

NIL - I'm not disputing what you all have had to say about the changing times in college athletics.  What I am curious about is what do the other programs like UB's have in terms of NIL resources going around?  Other MAC schools for instance.  I would have a problem if UB is falling behind them.  But if the rest are all in the same boat, I can understand.

I keep reminding myself, there isn't this huge pot of money to throw around here.  Especially post-covid, when all athletic departments are probably hurting for cash.  They're basically using a lot of the buyout money from Alabama for Oats for buying out Whitesell's remaining years, correct?

The first section…I wholeheartedly agree with. But young people are entitled these days and don’t want full blown challenges. Sad really. 

Second point…I think it’s become clear that we are indeed falling behind other MAC schools. When BG is passing on a guy who is top 3 on our list, that’s an issue. I read somewhere that schools like Toledo are stepping up their NIL game. We are falling behind. And to be complacent about it will only make matters worse. Gotta be ahead of everyone else. Not with em. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by DooleyBull06

[enrique14150]

3 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

The first section…I wholeheartedly agree with. But young people are entitled these days and don’t want full blown challenges. Sad really. 

Second point…I think it’s become clear that we have indeed falling behind other MAC schools. When BG is passing on a guy who is top 3 on our list, that’s an issue. I read somewhere that schools like Toledo are stepping up their NIL game. We are falling behind. And to be complacent about it will only make matters worse. Gotta be ahead of everyone else. Not with em. 

I have no clue what the other MAC schools are doing for NIL.  So I don't know what the level is that we're trying to meet (at least) and surpass (hopefully).  And I don't want to criticize them in that case for what I don't know.

Edited March 27, 2023 by enrique14150

[DooleyBull06]

Just now, enrique14150 said:

I have no clue what the other MAC schools are doing for NIL.  So I don't know what the level is that we're trying to meet (at least) and surpass (hopefully).

Agree. No of us really do. But in reading between the lines certain things become clear. And it’s become clear that our own house isn’t in order. Our foundation is broken. 

[MuchMany]

8 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

We've had players that flash excitement. We've had games that flash excitement (I was at the Ball State game in Muncie and thought "hey, maybe I can get behind this team). We have not had an exciting team (one that makes you think they can win games of consequence) in 4 years.

IMO there's a difference between a fan like you who understands the game and can see potential in statistical categories like efficiency and then there is the general public/donor base that says "I want to support a winning program". We are currently seeing what happens when the latter is left unsatisfied.

I'll take that as a compliment. 😂

I agree with your point in the macro, but I think it all blurs together unfortunately. The 2021 team that lost to Ohio in the finals was actually awesome. 73rd on Torvik playing the 14th fastest pace and great defense. Win that game and the narrative completely shifts. Alas, that's why they play the games, etc. 

[DaBulls99]

I think many of you are missing the boat on NIL. The Athletics Dept isn’t supposed to be involved in it. It’s literally all of us as donors, fans, etc. Check out the Toledo article….

Importantly, NIL collectives are not directly associated with a university. They’re not supposed to communicate with a program about prospects. Furthermore, they are not able to give out deals to recruits, in pay-for-play deals.
 

https://www.on3.com/nil/news/toledo-nil-collective-friends-of-rocky-becomes-first-mac-collective/

[DooleyBull06]

Just now, MuchMany said:

I'll take that as a compliment. 😂

I agree with your point in the macro, but I think it all blurs together unfortunately. The 2021 team that lost to Ohio in the finals was actually awesome. 73rd on Torvik playing the 14th fastest pace and great defense. Win that game and the narrative completely shifts. Alas, that's why they play the games, etc. 

Agree. At the time I said Whitesell’s tenure was defined as missed opportunity. Bc he inherited a ready made winner and failed to deliver. But once those guys left it became clear he couldn’t recruit. Didn’t know how he wanted to construct his roster. Whether it would be portal loaded or high school loaded. He couldn’t win any big games. All the little things off the court a coach these days must do he wasn’t doing. And in a short period of time, post pandemic, we were surpassed. By miles.

[enrique14150]

Reading all these pages from the past few days, what I gather is, the feeling that "the team is underachieving, let's move on from the coach and bring in some new energy.  It's a prime job that should attract an ambitious, up-and-coming coach."  And we've been smacked with a sharp dose of reality.

[DooleyBull06]

Just now, DaBulls99 said:

I think many of you are missing the boat on NIL. The Athletics Dept isn’t supposed to be involved in it. It’s literally all of us as donors, fans, etc. Check out the Toledo article….

Importantly, NIL collectives are not directly associated with a university. They’re not supposed to communicate with a program about prospects. Furthermore, they are not able to give out deals to recruits, in pay-for-play deals.
 

https://www.on3.com/nil/news/toledo-nil-collective-friends-of-rocky-becomes-first-mac-collective/

Yes of course. Wink wink nod nod. But isn’t it the responsibility of the AD to drum up support from donors? Kinda be the biggest and loudest cheerleader of the program. 

[Jeseph]

5 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

I'll take that as a compliment. 😂

The 2021 team that lost to Ohio in the finals was actually awesome.

It was meant as one.

Right, but they lost that game by 15 and then we got to where we are today and my point is that the results/eye test are what sticks with fans.

[Kevin]

1 hour ago, ukbro00 said:

Coming from the person who said Cohen would take the job and also that it would be done last week.

Not sharing information is fine. Lying is disrespectful.

On 3/18/2023 at 9:36 PM, Kevin said:

They hire them and then dont use the information they provide.

By the way, I was also told that "cohen would take the job". Unsure where he ranks on our list. 

I didn't say it was "done" what are you talking about? Lying is disrespectful. 

I don't do this much but I'm not going to be called a liar. 

Things change. I was told money/contract length could play a role in what happened. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Kevin

[DooleyBull06]

1 minute ago, enrique14150 said:

Reading all these pages from the past few days, what I gather is, the feeling that "the team is underachieving, let's move on from the coach and bring in some new energy.  It's a prime job that should attract an ambitious, up-and-coming coach."  And we've been smacked with a sharp dose of reality.

Agree. As of 2 days ago we were presumably on the verge of hiring that up and comer. And we were thought to be a prime job still. But that dose of reality has hit hard and the details of why are trickling out. We are correct in now reacting to it. 

[trueblue32]

12 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

I'll take that as a compliment. 😂

I agree with your point in the macro, but I think it all blurs together unfortunately. The 2021 team that lost to Ohio in the finals was actually awesome. 73rd on Torvik playing the 14th fastest pace and great defense. Win that game and the narrative completely shifts. Alas, that's why they play the games, etc. 

Yeah I think this kinda sums up the gap in the opinions on Whitesell here over the years. The variance in a given season can really shape the outlook. Analytics help you cut thru the noise, although I understand many fans don't care about that.

I think his first 3 seasons were fine as a "floor" for what everyone wanted UB to become, and that's why I was fine with Whitesell when he was hired. I value never falling off the map like we have started to do this year. Some people wanted a "ceiling" hire during the last go around, and I didn't think that's wrong either, but I think there was risk to starting from scratch and hoping you don't bust on the first season. There are different risk tolerances, but I think everyone hoped for UB to continue to rise one way or another. I would've liked to see UB sit on the Oats' buyout, and then use it to buyout Whitesell after last year when we'd be starting anew regardless, but with a coach with more upside. Hindsight, yada yada.

Now we need a "ceiling" hire and the handling of the Whitesell era has handicapped us. I thought the Whitesell era could've been a bridge to the next great era of UB basketball, but it looks like we'll be stuck settling for a coach and hopefully it works out somehow.

Edited March 27, 2023 by trueblue32

[Jeseph]

2 minutes ago, trueblue32 said:

Yeah I think this kinda sums up probably the gap in the opinions on Whitesell here. The variance in a given season can really shape the outlook. Analytics help you cut thru the noise, although I understand many fans don't care about that.

I think his first 3 seasons were fine as a "floor" for what everyone wanted UB to become, and that's why I was fine with Whitesell when he was hired. I value never falling off the map like we have started to do this year. Some people wanted a "ceiling" hire during the last go around, and I didn't think that's wrong either, but I think there was risk to starting from scratch and hoping you don't bust on the first season. There are different risk tolerances, but I think everyone hoped for UB to continue to rise one way or another. I would've liked to see UB sit on the Oats' buyout, and then use it to buyout Whitesell after last year when we'd be starting anew regardless, but with a coach with more upside. Hindsight, yada yada.

Now we need a "ceiling" hire and the handling of the Whitesell era has handicapped us. I thought the Whitesell era could've been a bridge to the next great era of UB basketball, but it looks like we'll be stuck settling for a coach and hopefully it works out somehow.

Yea at the end of the day it's the extension that killed us.

[DooleyBull06]

Whats the new over/under of pages this thread hits before we hire a coach?

[trueblue32]

The key is apparently finding a coach who will sign a contract without thinking about it:

 

[everlast2504]

5 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Whats the new over/under of pages this thread hits before we hire a coach?

32 

[MuchMany]

There's a lot of good stuff in this thread, wise insight and shared trauma (I know, but really). I'm out of reactions but just wanted to shout everyone out for trying to process what appears to be a mess. Is there a fan council we could all contribute to or do you need to make seven figures for that?

Well said above @trueblue32

Edited March 27, 2023 by MuchMany

[enrique14150]

10 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Whats the new over/under of pages this thread hits before we hire a coach?

At least a dozen more pages of speculation by those of us with no actual knowledge of what's really going on.

[ButlerAlumDad]

14 minutes ago, Kevin said:

I didn't say it was "done" what are you talking about? Lying is disrespectful. 

I don't do this much but I'm not going to be called a liar. 

Things change. I was told money/contract length could play a role in what happened. 

That was also before all Big East teams earned a lot of $ (16 unit share) from playing in the NCAA tournament. Going to a 1 bid league from the Big East might have changed his mind. I know at Butler watching all Horizon teams benefit from the 2 final four runs helped in the decision to go to a multi-bid league. 

 

[MuchMany]

4 minutes ago, ButlerAlumDad said:

That was also before all Big East teams earned a lot of $ (16 unit share) from playing in the NCAA tournament. Going to a 1 bid league from the Big East might have changed his mind. I know at Butler watching all Horizon teams benefit from the 2 final four runs helped in the decision to go to a multi-bid league. 

 

It might be nothing, but I'll be wondering what would have happened if Kennesaw State had finished off their double digit lead in the 3-14 matchup with Xavier. Both timing and prestige-wise. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by MuchMany

[Jeseph]

8 minutes ago, enrique14150 said:

At least a dozen more pages of speculation by those of us with no actual knowledge of what's really going on.

We don't even have speculation left. It's just trauma dumping at this point as @MuchMany said lol

[UBfan44]

A little while back I left these boards because the discourse had become so toxic with regards to the basketball program. It was extremely frustrating to see the team not supported because of negative feelings towards the coach. Personally I wasn’t sure whether Whitesell was the right guy or not but I was willing to give him the time to try. In retrospect many on this board were correct, but I don’t regret not jumping on the hate wagon. Flash forward to now, and here is my version of the timeline of events:

Oats leaves for Alabama, and UB receives a solid payout. Alnutt elects to retain and hire Whitesell after utilizing a search firm to find a coach. Whitesell came relatively cheap, and UB still had the Oats payout to use when needed. This was fine with me, as Whitesell promised and delivered on keeping the team together. We had Graves, Williams, Jordan, and Segu to keep it rolling. 
 

Whitesell generally underperformed over the next several seasons, but IMO the players he was bringing in and the direction the “core” of the team was moving warranted a wait and see approach. Instead, Alnutt inexplicably gave him an extension and this was the first big flaw in the process. Nothing was done to deserve an extension, and having a large buyout attached to it was absurd. Did he think Jim was going to jump ship for a bigger program despite not winning at UB? 
 

After the 4th season of Whitesell’s tenure and another disappointing result, mixed with a revolving door of players, no direction, and no indication that things would change, he was let go. It was time. It may have gone a year too long and it ended up not working, but I didn’t fault the idea of it all. Afterall they still had the Oats buyout money to throw at a new coach. Except the extension. Not only did UB have to pay for Whitesell’s buyout, but they did it a few weeks early to the sound of an extra 100k. What was Alnutt thinking? Did he miscalculate? Did he get to a point where he realized he was in a sunk cost fallacy? We might never know.

 

Now we’re at the point where the Oats money is likely gone, theres been no NIL cultivation, coaches are saying no left and right (despite the fact that search firms are supposed to weed those candidates out to avoid this exact embarrassment), donors are going to be turned off, and half the team is already in the transfer portal without anyone to steer the ship. IMO this is catastrophic for Alnutt, and unless he can pull a rabbit out of his hat I don’t see how it’s anything other than a giant step back for the program. 

[everlast2504]

So what happens if we can't find a coach?

Is it like being arrested? Will one be provided if we can't afford one?