Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[BullsFan14]

Talking About NYBI again......

[Jeseph]

6 minutes ago, BullsFan14 said:

Now that Whitesell lost these past two MAC games, what would you like to see from him that you think will help get this team on track?

Play with the "same defensive intensity" that he talked about in his opening presser. Figure out an offensive flow that puts our athletic talent in better positions (pass the damn ball with purpose). FIRE THIS TEAM UP AND MAKE THEM LOVE WINNING AND HATE LOSING WITH NO EXCEPTIONS.

[UB92]

58 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

 

The team took a step back as they rebuild and they are still one of the best teams in the conference.  That is what happens when you've got a great program and your coach is doing a good job.

 

If UB Athletics is on Kevin's case for being too negative, how much are they paying you to spout out this piece of non-sense?  I am assuming you are somehow affiliated with the UB Athletics program.

There is optimistic, overly optimistic and then there is you.

[dutchcountry7]

21 minutes ago, UB92 said:

If UB Athletics is on Kevin's case for being too negative, how much are they paying you to spout out this piece of non-sense?  I am assuming you are somehow affiliated with the UB Athletics program.

There is optimistic, overly optimistic and then there is you.

You know it is comical...

In this very thread I have been called:

• A conspiracy theorist for my comments about the previous staff and their behavior on their way out the door
• Someone who doesn't know anything about what has gone on in the athletic department or with the basketball program because I state that the "Gonzaga of the East" was simply a marketing line for recruits.
• And now I am being called an employee of the Athletic Department.

Which is it?  Do I work for the athletic department or do I know nothing about what goes on in the athletic department?

The reality is that all of those bullet points are completely wrong about me.

I would gladly circle back in the future and see what you think of the program when people aren't jaded from a loss.

To the other points...

Is Kevin a member of the press or someone who simply wants free tickets to the games?  The line between media and fan sure has been blurred in the last few years.  And that has probably been a good thing for UB.  A lot of people have been able to start publishing their own material on UB and overwhelmingly it has been great to have UB fans pose as media. 

I would say it is a bad thing if UB is trying to play both sides of the fence and treat positive press from fans as media and negative press from fans as not really media.  Not sure what their standards are for establishing media credentials.  I have never had them. 

[dutchcountry7]

50 minutes ago, Bull_In_Exile said:

You Market UCF as the "home town team" for a few reasons..

1 - It's not the highest level of athletics by a state school in Florida. HE's never going to get any buy in on "we're floridas team" when you have *FLORIDA* AND *FLORIDA STATE* in objectivly better conferences with real history. In NY you don't have that problem. UB as a state school is at the highest level and with far more history than any other institution. we *ARE* the leaders and our only competition for that mantle is a large private school and a military academy. Everyone else in the state has no FBS football, let alone *better* football.

2 - Orlando is significantly larger than Buffalo. The metro area is twice the population of Buffalo NY so you're fishing in a bigger pond

--

The NYBI logo and some of the sales pitch could have been better but the program as a whole undoubetly advanced the department and we are reaping the benefit of that time. Attendance went up, donations went up, performance went up. Our profile raised more under white than it did under Warde or than it has since White.

Warde did a great job laying groundwork, it was not sexy but it was critical. He handed White a healthy Athletic department white handed off an even better one.

As to the "it alienated people" I lay that at the feet of Bucky and Sully who spent years harping on uniform patches and slogans when they could have been introducing the people of Buffalo to Khalil Mack.

Ha ha ha you're still defending it?

It is comical, and sad, that people think the public distinction is significant.  The NYBI was a complete failure.  The fact that they gave it a name which included the work "Initiative" was even worse. It let people know it is was a gimmick. 

Did White extend a personal favor to you that makes you feel loyal to him?  You know, you don't have to defend the failure to be supportive of the man, right?  He has moved on and is doing very well after learning from his mistakes in Buffalo.

[skrabukes]

2 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Ha ha ha you're still defending it?

It is comical, and sad, that people think the public distinction is significant.  The NYBI was a complete failure.  The fact that they gave it a name which included the work "Initiative" was even worse. It let people know it is was a gimmick. 

Did White extend a personal favor to you that makes you feel loyal to him?  You know, you don't have to defend the failure to be supportive of the man, right?  He has moved on and is doing very well after learning from his mistakes in Buffalo.

While I wasn't a big fan of some of the things DW did, and the NYBI wasn't a great one, but many of the other things that he did were gigantic successes (bringing in Bobby, which led to Nate, bringing in FLJ, bringing in Lance, among others). He's been gone for a few years now and many of his successes are still shining proudly here. Let's hope we can continue to build on those gains in the coming years.

[Bull_In_Exile]

39 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Ha ha ha you're still defending it?

 

The results speak for themselves...

> Did White extend a personal favor to you that makes you feel loyal to him?  

Did White once take a shaq on your lawn so you feel the need to run him down?

> You know, you don't have to defend the failure to be supportive of the man, right? 

In what way was UB's athletic department worse off after White than before. I've already said the marketing of the whole thing was not good, but what NYBI was, under the hood, was very successful and you can't point to a single program in the department that was not better at the end of his tenure. 

> He has moved on and is doing very well after learning from his mistakes in Buffalo.

Mistakes.... More MAC Championships, more winning, uptick in donations, uptick in attendance and ticket sales, uptick in media penetration. These are objective tangible things. You're pointing at the word "initiative" 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Bull_In_Exile

[UB05]

2 hours ago, BullsFan14 said:

Now that Whitesell lost these past two MAC games, what would you like to see from him that you think will help get this team on track?

Defense defense defense. Too many guys getting lost in picks, not rotating properly, not in the faces of shooters. Fix the defense (Whitesell is VERY capable of this) and we’ll be fine. People forget we beat Harvard, DePaul, and Bonaventure so far, we have the ability just lacking focus 

[UB05]

21 minutes ago, Erie County said:

 

Also, I'm sick of the players posting highlight reals of their nights after bad losses. The team and staff should be worrying about that and not what posts are being made on this message board of fans/members/community and paying season ticket holders.

If this helps keep the players in a positive mindset, who cares? 
 

also, I don’t think the team gives a crap what fans are posting. They’re probably upset that someone they gave media credentials to is constantly running to a fan site to shitpost about their program and bash their coaches/players. 

[961819]

The job of the coach is to motivate and inspire their players to be successful. They provide guidance, structure, as well as playcalling in games. They must also have a good sense of when to call a time out to try and regroup when things aren’t going well. I started the season optimistic, now not so much. 
 

Our coach may be a great person, but his sideline intensity leaves a lot to be desired. When a team isn’t playing well, and when they’re down by double digits, they need a fire under their ass and some sort of energy to feed off of to motivate them to play better and make a come back. Whitesell simply does not get fired up. A bad call happens? He stands there with his hand on his chin. A player makes a bad play? He starts Sean McDermott clapping in front of the bench. There is ZERO intensity. 
 

If your team was down by several scores and you’re starting to get demoralized by it, which one would motivate you better and give you the energy boost to do something about it: A coach calmly explaining techniques and pointing things out, or a coach who is going to yell and scream and put a chip on your shoulder? Its why players who’s coach also happens to be their parent put so much effort in. Their parent knows EXACTLY what buttons to push to get you pumped up and motivated to do better. 
 

A coach can’t always be a player’s best friend, sometimes they have to call them out and make situations uncomfortable because clearly whatever the player was doing before wasn’t working. 
 

Until there is a significant culture change and surge of energy brought to this team, expect a lot of the same results. 
 

As far as players posting their own personal highlights after bad losses go, take that any way you want. I personally interpret it as them saying “Hey other college coaches, look what I can do! Look how talented I am, look how solid of a transfer I could be for your program! Get me out of this lifeless team please!” 
 

Disagree with me all you want. There plenty of people on here that seem to not comprehend that people will have differing opinions than them. My position is going to remain that this team needs a f**king leader to stand up and be vocal and motivate them to be better and play to their potential. 

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, Bull_In_Exile said:

The results speak for themselves...

> Did White extend a personal favor to you that makes you feel loyal to him?  

Did White once take a shaq on your lawn so you feel the need to run him down?

> You know, you don't have to defend the failure to be supportive of the man, right? 

In what way was UB's athletic department worse off after White than before. I've already said the marketing of the whole thing was not good, but what NYBI was, under the hood, was very successful and you can't point to a single program in the department that was not better at the end of his tenure. 

> He has moved on and is doing very well after learning from his mistakes in Buffalo.

Mistakes.... More MAC Championships, more winning, uptick in donations, uptick in attendance and ticket sales, uptick in media penetration. These are objective tangible things. You're pointing at the word "initiative" 

The NYBI slowed the progress.

White made great hires.  That is absolutely true.  100%.

His marketing was always a bust.  He burned through more cash than he raised.  But the success on the field from his hires lead to future interest which we have benefitted from immensely. 

I don't really have a problem with White.  He did some good and did some bad.  Most people don't realize the bad but that is fine since he is long gone. 

He hired coaches that brought winning and that has benefitted us and it's best to focus on the positives as we move forward.  Thank you Danny White for bringing in coaches than won. 

 

[dutchcountry7]

11 minutes ago, UB05 said:

If this helps keep the players in a positive mindset, who cares?

I agree with this but there has been a trend where the posting of highlights online (especially after losses) is used as a way to signal to other programs that they might be interested in transferring.  It is showing off their talents for other programs who might want to backchannel a contact to see if they are interested in a transfer.

Sure, it might simply be players wanting to feel good about themselves.  But it also could be them feeling good without taking responsibility for their role on the team.  It isn't a good thing when a players doesn't feel the significance of a team's loss.

But, personally, I am indifferent to it.  It might not be anything to read into and I admit that I don't understand the kids' social media culture with posting everything about their lives...

[Jeseph]

18 minutes ago, 961819 said:

The job of the coach is to motivate and inspire their players to be successful. They provide guidance, structure, as well as playcalling in games. They must also have a good sense of when to call a time out to try and regroup when things aren’t going well. I started the season optimistic, now not so much. 
 

Our coach may be a great person, but his sideline intensity leaves a lot to be desired. When a team isn’t playing well, and when they’re down by double digits, they need a fire under their ass and some sort of energy to feed off of to motivate them to play better and make a come back. Whitesell simply does not get fired up. A bad call happens? He stands there with his hand on his chin. A player makes a bad play? He starts Sean McDermott clapping in front of the bench. There is ZERO intensity. 
 

If your team was down by several scores and you’re starting to get demoralized by it, which one would motivate you better and give you the energy boost to do something about it: A coach calmly explaining techniques and pointing things out, or a coach who is going to yell and scream and put a chip on your shoulder? Its why players who’s coach also happens to be their parent put so much effort in. Their parent knows EXACTLY what buttons to push to get you pumped up and motivated to do better. 
 

A coach can’t always be a player’s best friend, sometimes they have to call them out and make situations uncomfortable because clearly whatever the player was doing before wasn’t working. 
 

Until there is a significant culture change and surge of energy brought to this team, expect a lot of the same results. 
 

As far as players posting their own personal highlights after bad losses go, take that any way you want. I personally interpret it as them saying “Hey other college coaches, look what I can do! Look how talented I am, look how solid of a transfer I could be for your program! Get me out of this lifeless team please!” 
 

Disagree with me all you want. There plenty of people on here that seem to not comprehend that people will have differing opinions than them. My position is going to remain that this team needs a f**king leader to stand up and be vocal and motivate them to be better and play to their potential. 

a-freaking-men!

[dutchcountry7]

41 minutes ago, Erie County said:

That's some undying loyalty. I have that for my wife but that's something to be able to sit here and have that opinion. Also, what bugs me is that you don't even entertain that some can feel opposite of you or be on the other fence. Are we sure you don't work for UB somewhere?!

Don't work for UB.  Never have.

I have been around enough programs to know that there is ebb and flow and that kids will have uncertainty.  The program isn't off the mark with where I thought they would be.

Fans are notorious for thinking their new players who didn't see a lot of minutes are going to be high impact and continuing winning ways.  We do realize that the players we graduated were not your typical MAC players, right?  They are playing in the pros for a reason.  That is a lot of pros to have on one roster.  The MAC doesn't get talent like that on one team but maybe once a decade. 

41 minutes ago, Erie County said:

I was on the fence on this topic when I first read it and everyone made good early points. However, I'm pretty upset that they try to change our narrative on the coaching staff through threats on message board postings (if that's what happened). 

If that is what's happening, then I agree.  There is no place for that.  And frankly, I would be surprised if UB had people monitoring the board.  Don't they have more pressing issues to attend to?

I have to give the benefit of the doubt here and think that Kevin was engaged in some other things (possibly twitter or some other channel) and they told him to act like a media member if he wants to keep credentials.  And that would be reasonable.  Media have standards they need to maintain.  It is fair game to call out coaches as a member of the media, so I don't think Kevin did anything wrong that should put credentials at risk, based on his post.  (Though I completely disagree with his bias.)

Of course, people, including members of the media, should be free to be critical of the program.  Otherwise, they are simply a PR arm.  But it is possible that's how they viewed these fan publications.  Simply pro-UB rags that will push the party line.  And if they weren't really considering them Media but simply PR, I guess it would make more sense.  But it probably isn't good practice to give media credentials to anyone that promises to give you good press.

41 minutes ago, Erie County said:

The team is in rough shape right now and I've seen the coach and general of this team make no moves or updates in game to help.

I don't know anything about what they are doing, or not doing, or what their goals are in the short or long term.

I am not in coaches meetings or in practice.  But I have faith in the staff and the players.  I am not going to sell just because the stock took a short term hit.  This is when I make the most money.  I have been through it before.

[ubfan75]

2 hours ago, UB85 said:

I can tell you straight that is utter BS! I know it makes people feel better to think otherwise. But it simply complete and utter BS. 

It was Alnutt who said “It’s not a dollar-for-dollar match, but it’s an opportunity for us to continue what we all think this program can be, a Gonzaga of the world" and that way of thinking was 100% incompatible with the earlier NYBI. 

[UBlearns]

27 minutes ago, 961819 said:

As far as players posting their own personal highlights after bad losses go, take that any way you want. I personally interpret it as them saying “Hey other college coaches, look what I can do! Look how talented I am, look how solid of a transfer I could be for your program! Get me out of this lifeless team please!” 
 

Disagree with me all you want. There plenty of people on here that seem to not comprehend that people will have differing opinions than them. My position is going to remain that this team needs a f**king leader to stand up and be vocal and motivate them to be better and play to their potential. 

I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes with the team, but I did find myself wondering during last night's game what's the morale right now?   Obviously Whitesell and staff were able to keep things together over the summer, but if this MAC season goes real south, there are several highly touted players here would be juicy transfer targets for other programs.  Enduring a subpar season, if that's where this ends up, is one thing - but if you as a player can't see the NCAA tournament at the end of the tunnel in your next 2-3 years here, do you stay?

[Bull_In_Exile]

2 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Ha ha ha you're still defending it?

 

Scoreboard... Results before white, results during and after white.... Nothing needs to be defended.

[UB85]

25 minutes ago, ubfan75 said:

It was Alnutt who said “It’s not a dollar-for-dollar match, but it’s an opportunity for us to continue what we all think this program can be, a Gonzaga of the world" and that way of thinking was 100% incompatible with the earlier NYBI. 

Words are cheap. Check out their actions. 

[ubfan75]

26 minutes ago, UBlearns said:

I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes with the team, but I did find myself wondering during last night's game what's the morale right now?   Obviously Whitesell and staff were able to keep things together over the summer, but if this MAC season goes real south, there are several highly touted players here would be juicy transfer targets for other programs.  Enduring a subpar season, if that's where this ends up, is one thing - but if you as a player can't see the NCAA tournament at the end of the tunnel in your next 2-3 years here, do you stay?

Exceptional teams have exceptional coaching, exceptional team leader(s), exceptional athletes, exceptional recruiting, exceptional buy-in from the school and an exceptional fan base. Many other teams, good teams that make the NCAA tournament, can't have all those things but still find a way to play like they do. Poor teams can be missing most of those advantages, but OTOH they also could have many of those advantages but they are negated by destructive elements. I, too, have no idea what's going on with the present team. I see play where they look lethargic, as does the coach. I see times where instead of a player slapping his chest to say "that mistake was on me" he instead openly blames another player. These might be hints...

Edited January 8, 2020 by ubfan75
typo

[dutchcountry7]

7 minutes ago, Bull_In_Exile said:

Scoreboard... Results before white, results during and after white.... Nothing needs to be defended.

Got it.  You call them the team the New York Bulls and think it was a huge success. 
 

While everyone else realizes White did some good for UB, in spite of his marketing failures and that the athletic department is better off despite the money he wasted on the failed marketing which actually hampered local support. 
 

Oh, but that’s right, you attribute the lack of support to be a conspiracy by someone behind the powerful new medium the newspaper.  Yeah, that’s it...

[Bull_In_Exile]

6 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Got it.  You call them the team the New York Bulls and think it was a huge success. 
 

Got it. Everything about the output of the department got better and many of his changes are still in place but because the words "New York" offended your provincial sensitivities danny white was a hack amateur. 

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, Bull_In_Exile said:

Got it. Everything about the output of the department got better and many of his changes are still in place but because the words "New York" offended your provincial sensitivities danny white was a hack amateur. 

It's funny how I literally offered praise for him and you can't admit that one thing he did was a complete failure.

Who here is the one that is sensitive?

 

[UB92]

3 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Which is it?  Do I work for the athletic department or do I know nothing about what goes on in the athletic department?

Hmm.  Maybe you don't work for the "Athletics Department".  Maybe in Development? Someplace else at UB?  A contractor with UB?   No one is this supportive on a fan site without an agenda.  You literally wrote "That is what happens when you've got a great program and your coach is doing a good job."

This whole thread is about the coach doing a lousy job (to varying degrees and with various caveats/explanations), but you think he is "doing a good job".  And you wrote this after last night's beat down.  

[SGBull]

1 hour ago, Erie County said:

I'll admit he had a bigger leg to stand on Monday. I think that went away.

Today it's just silly to not have thoughts of "maybe this wasn't a great hire" and "hm, I don't like this man's energy or schemes". It doesn't mean you want him to fail or the team to lose. It means you are a fan and questioning the decisions since March. 

I'm just upset we cant see the first post by the OP because we have an athletics department that monitors our one fan message board.  This is where some of us come to discuss positives and celebrations and where we come to vent. I thought I read last year where we had a guy tattling on other members for words of encouragement for recruits (that was weak and nothing was ever done about it) and now he or someone else is reporting people for thought provoking opinions. Do we know stuff like this will get this board removed/inactive for good?

I'm disappointed all around today!!

We could all start posting on the UB athletics subreddit. It is dead right now but I’m pretty sure the athletics department can’t  do anything about stuff on reddit.

[SGBull]

Also, has it been confirmed that UB athletics actually removed the post?