Battle against the Ragin Cajuns 11/21/23 1:30pm

[Chet]

Sabol can shoot.....9/16 from distance this season. Definitely lacks quickness on defense. He appears to have a role moving forward. 

[MuchMany]

25 minutes ago, Chet said:

This a a rough take, but not too many lies being told.

Not so much lies as contradictory ramblings from our local Catholic schools sycophant...

3 hours ago, UB Horns Up said:

And if George Halcovage doesn’t get some NIL money from the UB alumni to go into the transfer portal to acquire some real basketball players with experience that can play next season will be a lost cause to.

3 hours ago, UB Horns Up said:

We are seeing why so many other programs passed on George Halcovage way over his head.

 

[RapidsFan]

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Edited February 18 by RapidsFan

[MuchMany]

1 hour ago, RapidsFan said:

UB Horns Up is former Bisons GM Mike Billoni - he's posted on Two Bills Drive and other Buffalo-related message boards for years with the exact same posting style, and exact same agenda (white Catholics are good, those dirty hoodlums are bad):

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/217600-2023-ub-football-thread/page/54/#comment-8693886

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/217600-2023-ub-football-thread/page/55/#comment-8731393

https://www.buffalorising.com/2023/09/crime-graffiti-and-so-on-its-time-to-renegotiate-with-the-buffalo-peacemakers/

Guy is literally brain damaged from a bicycle accident, so I suppose he's due a tiny bit of sympathy

Good to know. Hope his health is alright moving forward. The posts used to amuse me, but UB sports aren't leaving much room for laughs at the moment. I'm all for some fraternal public v private ribbing, but I'm all set here I think. 

[ChubbyHubby]

Isn't UB Horns Up the old BSF?

[BrooklynBull]

1 hour ago, ChubbyHubby said:

Isn't UB Horns Up the old BSF?

Yes.

[ChubbyHubby]

That's what I thought.  I'm pretty sure BSF (UB Horns Up) is not Mike Billoni

[rma]

17 hours ago, RapidsFan said:

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/217600-2023-ub-football-thread/page/54/#comment-8693886

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/217600-2023-ub-football-thread/page/55/#comment-8731393

Just because I saw it repeated there, the old TBN narrative of "drop UB football [entirely/to FCS], become a national power in basketball" does not work and never will work.

Canisius dropped football (and 5 other sports) in 2002. Since then Canisius has made 0 men's basketball NCAA tournament appearances, 0 NIT appearances, 1 NCAA women's basketball appearance, 0 WNIT appearances, 2 NCAA men's hockey tournament appearances.

Okay but Canisius was FCS, let's look at FBS:

Last program to drop from FBS to FCS was Idaho in 2017. The decision to drop to FCS was prompted in part by the football team being conferenceless, but putting that aside. Idaho has made 0 men's basketball NCAA tournament appearances, 0 NIT appearances, 0 NCAA women's basketball appearances, 0 WNIT appearances since the drop to FCS. Worth noting their longtime men's basketball coach was fired around the transition to FCS for NCAA violations. Even so, their men's basketball team last made the NCAA/NIT in 1990.

Next drop from FBS to FCS was FAMU in 2004. Much different school profile (HBCU vs Flagship) but since the drop to FCS they made the men's NCAA one time (lost to Niagara in a play in), 0 NIT appearances. Women's basketball has not made it to the NCAA tournament or WNIT either.

The next most recent team to drop from FBS was University of the Pacific after the 1995 season. Different profile as well (private vs Flagship). Their basketball team has gone to the NCAA tournament 5 times in the 27 possible seasons since the announcement, making it past the first round twice. They also made the NIT once. Their women's basketball team has made the WNIT a few times recently but hasn't made the big dance (ever).

Prior to that, Cal State Fullerton dropped football entirely in 1992. 3 men's tournament appearances, 1 NIT. 0 women's NCAA appearances, 0 WNIT. Worth noting Cal State Fullerton has a widely successful baseball team that had success prior to and after the discontinuation of football.

Next up, Long Beach State dropped football entirely in 1991. Similar situation. 4 men's NCAA appearances, 6 NIT one-and-dones. 2 women's basketball tournament appearances, 4 WNIT appearances. Coincidentally, football was dropped immediately after a stretch of women's basketball that included 2 final 4's. Long Beach also has a successful baseball team similar to Fullerton, with 2 CWS appearances in the 90's and a bunch of NCAA tournament appearances after 1991.

The best example that I can find of even a remote chance the "drop football become gud at basketball" argument works is Wichita State. After the 1986 season, the football program was discontinued because of financials. Since then 11 men's tournament appearances, 7 R32, 3 S16, 1 F4. Won the NIT in 2011. Women have 3 NCAA appearances, 4 WNIT.

However

Wichita State did not become a powerhouse basketball program until Gregg Marshall got to campus, which was a full 20 years after football was dropped. Between football being dropped and Marshall being hired there were 3 NCAA tournament appearances and 1 S16. There was a stretch of 7 years without a winning season.

 

Dropping football (to FCS) does not make an athletics program magically turn things around. It is the investment of the school that determines this.

James Madison University had a stadium that looked like this 20 years ago.

This is their stadium now:

We had a stadium that looked like theirs 20 years ago. And we still do.

It's the level of commitment from the university that is going to determine where resources go. When that photo was taken JMU had two conference championships: 1975 and 1999. Since then, they've added 8 conference and 2 national championships.

JMU has an endowment of $155 million and a budget of $628 million. We have an endowment of $1 billion and a budget of $850 million. Axing football isn't going to magically give those millions to basketball.

[RapidsFan]

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Edited February 18 by RapidsFan

[xDerekRx]

Impressive. Really like what JMU has done in both Football and Basketball.

I agree no question both sports should stay D1 here, its how they continue to grow them.

I've always wanted the Bulls to go hard in D1 Hockey but that's a 20 years old argument Im jumping back into right now.

[rma]

2 minutes ago, RapidsFan said:

Ok, but even if UB football won the MAC, went undefeated, and had a strong team with a player of Khalil Mack's caliber...they're still never getting invited into the college playoffs

So what's the point in having football exactly

Sounds like the system is broken. It's getting (kinda) fixed soon though.

Ivy League doesn't send their teams to the FCS playoffs, why do they play football? It's a marketing arm for the school, kids want to go to a school that have things to do other than just school. Encourages alumni involvement, etc.

[DooleyBull06]

1 hour ago, RapidsFan said:

Ok, but even if UB football won the MAC, went undefeated, and had a strong team with a player of Khalil Mack's caliber...they're still never getting invited into the college playoffs

So what's the point in having football exactly

Even if they did somehow host a college playoff game, the home teams have the option of playing at a neutral site of their choosing - no way UB doesn't opt to play at the Bills stadium in that situation

Bc football leads the way. Football is the driving force. Football pays the bills for most athletic departments. 

[RapidsFan]

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Edited February 18 by RapidsFan

[rma]

33 minutes ago, RapidsFan said:

Remember when they shoved the baseball team onto a little league field behind Northtown Center that was always flooded for half of its season

The D1 plan was always "fund the football program, everything else is a formality"

Trickle down economics has never worked

There was a plan to build an on campus baseball facility during the Danny White years. Meanwhile the football stadium has not had any significant upgrades to the average spectator in decades.

[UBlearns]

2 hours ago, rma said:

The best example that I can find of even a remote chance the "drop football become gud at basketball" argument works is Wichita State. After the 1986 season, the football program was discontinued because of financials. Since then 11 men's tournament appearances, 7 R32, 3 S16, 1 F4. Won the NIT in 2011. Women have 3 NCAA appearances, 4 WNIT.

However

Wichita State did not become a powerhouse basketball program until Gregg Marshall got to campus, which was a full 20 years after football was dropped. Between football being dropped and Marshall being hired there were 3 NCAA tournament appearances and 1 S16. There was a stretch of 7 years without a winning season.

I agree with your points and it's also worth noting that Wichita State has a megadonor in Charles Koch.  Supposedly Koch money was funding Gregg Marshall's salary, and was basically the reason they were able to keep him from jumping ship to a larger program (prior to his resignation).  He was being paid $3.6 million back in 2020, his final season; today, even without factoring inflation, that'd put him as the 20th highest-paid coach in the country (per this link, for what it's worth).  That's the kind of money Oats is getting from Alabama; in fact, when Alabama almost poached Marshall, Charles Koch and other business leaders pooled together funds to nearly double his salary and put him in the top 10 of coach salaries, to keep him at Wichita State. 

I know UB has donors, but I'm not sure UB has THAT level of donor.  Charles Koch is the 22nd richest man in the world, per Wikipedia.

Edited November 22, 2023 by UBlearns

[RapidsFan]

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Edited February 18 by RapidsFan

[enrique14150]

5 minutes ago, RapidsFan said:

Ok, but on the other hand, maybe New York State is doing something right since it wastes less taxpayer money on sports:

Does this take into account how much of those coaches' salaries are paid by donors, versus student fees and/or public funds (taxes)?  Take Nick Saban for example - highest paid public employee in Alabama...but his salary is covered by donors.  So it doesn't cost the taxpayer anything. 

[squire17]

2 hours ago, rma said:

Canisius dropped football (and 5 other sports) in 2002. Since then Canisius has made 0 men's basketball NCAA tournament appearances, 0 NIT appearances, 1 NCAA women's basketball appearance, 0 WNIT appearances, 2 NCAA men's hockey tournament appearances.

For the record, Canisius has a baseball and a softball program. Both teams have competed in the NCAA playoffs, most recently in 2022. 

[RapidsFan]

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Edited February 18 by RapidsFan

[rma]

29 minutes ago, RapidsFan said:

If the football program disappeared tomorrow, would UB's enrollment decline?

If the Buffalo Bills moved to San Antonio, would the population in Buffalo decline?

The answer is no to both questions, but people like football so that's why us taxpayers are paying $850 million (UB's annual operating budget) to a billionaire to build a new Bills stadium. And the same reason why UB students pay $265 a semester to subsidize athletics.