Ball State/UB Saturday

[bulls2684]

1 hour ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I spoke to everyone of them except for Oats before the year. Williams and Segu mentioned winning a regular season title with Williams adding the words “Sweet 16.”

Shouldn’t that be the goal every year? What is the motivation to play if you don’t expect to do well. No players are going to say finish .500 as the goal for a season they’re playing in no matter what level they’re playing at. 

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

52 minutes ago, UB92 said:

 

This is a really bad take.   The previous post you said "

 

Starting posts like this is why this message board has become polarizing. It’s okay to state differing opinions but starting a response like that isn’t the way to do so.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

32 minutes ago, bulls2684 said:

Shouldn’t that be the goal every year? What is the motivation to play if you don’t expect to do well. No players are going to say finish .500 as the goal for a season they’re playing in no matter what level they’re playing at. 

That should be the goal but that’s also why fans get upset when they don’t live up to expectations. Also, there’s a big difference between saying “Sweet 16” and “Making the NCAA Tournament.”

In sales, they say “undersell, over deliver.” When you do the opposite, it leads to a disappointing customer experience. For that same reason, there’s many upset UB fans that wanted more from this squad.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[Kevin]

24 minutes ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

That should be the goal but that’s also why fans get upset when they don’t live up to expectations. Also, there’s a big difference between saying “Sweet 16” and “Making the NCAA Tournament.”

In sales, they say “undersell, over deliver.” When you do the opposite, it leads to a disappointing customer experience. For that same reason, there’s many upset UB fans that wanted more from this squad.

These are my thoughts summed up by one response. 

[UBlearns]

1 hour ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

That should be the goal but that’s also why fans get upset when they don’t live up to expectations. Also, there’s a big difference between saying “Sweet 16” and “Making the NCAA Tournament.”

In sales, they say “undersell, over deliver.” When you do the opposite, it leads to a disappointing customer experience. For that same reason, there’s many upset UB fans that wanted more from this squad.

With all due respect, I'm having trouble following your argument.  I am somewhat disappointed with this season because I expected more from this team.  I think this is a very talented team, and has been for a few years now, that hasn't clicked.  

But that said, I don't want any player on this team who doesn't think they're capable of going out and winning every game.  And yes, I mean every game.  I've been on plenty of good sports teams and bad sports teams in my life.  The minute you walk onto the court (field, diamond, whatever) with the mindset that you're going to lose the game, you've already lost. 

98% of D-1 teams realistically have no chance to win a title.  Probably 80% wouldn't even have a chance to sniff a Sweet 16.  But I want every player on my team, whether that's a SWAC bottom-feeder, a Big 10 power, or even a team like UB, to believe they have a shot to make some noise every year.  I want every player on this team to think that they're capable of winning the conference, capable of making some noise in March, making it to the Sweet 16.  Because if they don't believe in themselves, what's the point?

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

16 minutes ago, UBlearns said:

With all due respect, I'm having trouble following your argument.  I am somewhat disappointed with this season because I expected more from this team.  I think this is a very talented team, and has been for a few years now, that hasn't clicked.  

But that said, I don't want any player on this team who doesn't think they're capable of going out and winning every game.  And yes, I mean every game.  I've been on plenty of good sports teams and bad sports teams in my life.  The minute you walk onto the court (field, diamond, whatever) with the mindset that you're going to lose the game, you've already lost. 

98% of D-1 teams realistically have no chance to win a title.  Probably 80% wouldn't even have a chance to sniff a Sweet 16.  But I want every player on my team, whether that's a SWAC bottom-feeder, a Big 10 power, or even a team like UB, to believe they have a shot to make some noise every year.  I want every player on this team to think that they're capable of winning the conference, capable of making some noise in March, making it to the Sweet 16.  Because if they don't believe in themselves, what's the point?

I am not saying that players shouldn’t believe that they’re capable of winning at a high level. I am saying there is a portion of the UB fanbase that is disappointed with this squad because they have failed to meet their high expectations that the team AND the media set for them prior to the season.

I am essentially saying that it’s fair for the “negative posters” to be discontent with this squad while at the same time also having the chance to win in Cleveland which is what all of the “positive posters” believe is a successful year.

It’s an expectations game and is a delicate balance. The same thing is used in politics, sales, and many other regards in life.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

The reason for my initial post on this topic is because I’m tired of the stupid fighting on this board between the positive and negative posters.

This place has become toxic and it’s apparent that many people avoid the board now because of what’s taking place.

My recent posts were addressed to both sides to basically admit that I can see the logic from the positive and negative posters on this board. It’s okay for people to have different expectations for this program, positive and negative and neither side makes them an idiot.

my post about expectations is simply based on how expectations impact people’s perceptions of a team. I’m experienced with this stuff from working in broadcasting and sales in the past.

This post is not directed at any individual  poster.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[ChubbyHubby]

Skogman needs to put on some beef.  #5 was backing him down to the basket with ease.  Granted, 5 was pretty much committing an offensive foul every time he did that, but most refs won't call that.  A number of times, he led with an elbow, or a shoulder.  Mballa is a bit of a turnover machine.  He needs to stop trying to put the ball on the floor.

I thought it was funny to see that, "commit an error, come back with another mistake" isn't limited to the players.  In the last minute, one of the officials made a terrible call on Rondo going out of bounds.  A young fan, (likely in wealthy Daddy's endline seats), started chirping at the official that made the bad call.  Said official then broke the cardinal rule of not getting into it with a fan.  Ref knew he was wrong, but decided to engage the fan. That's a big no-no 

We certainly aren't living up to the pre-season hype, but we need to be happy with the W.  We're getting close to MAC tourney time.  It's time to live up to all of the hype

[UBlearns]

22 minutes ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I am not saying that players shouldn’t believe that they’re capable of winning at a high level. I am saying there is a portion of the UB fanbase that is disappointed with this squad because they have failed to meet their high expectations that the team AND the media set for them prior to the season.

I am essentially saying that it’s fair for the “negative posters” to be discontent with this squad while at the same time also having the chance to win in Cleveland which is what all of the “positive posters” believe is a successful year.

It’s an expectations game and is a delicate balance. The same thing is used in politics, sales, and many other regards in life.

I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying that if someone is specifically more-disappointed-than-otherwise because some players on the team had openly high hopes for the season, I personally think that's a little silly.  Being disappointed after the media hype, coaches polls, etc....absolutely fair game.  But if someone can sit here and say that they'd be less disappointed in this team if Jeenathan Williams said "top 4 of the conference" instead of "Sweet 16", I guess I just don't understand that part.

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

5 minutes ago, UBlearns said:

I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying that if someone is specifically more-disappointed-than-otherwise because some players on the team had openly high hopes for the season, I personally think that's a little silly.  Being disappointed after the media hype, coaches polls, etc....absolutely fair game.  But if someone can sit here and say that they'd be less disappointed in this team if Jeenathan Williams said "top 4 of the conference" instead of "Sweet 16", I guess I just don't understand that part.

I’m lumping player expectations with media expectations. I should’ve worded that better.

When I was referring to player expectations, my point was more this:

If Williams and Segu were thinking of a regular season title and Sweet 16 before the season, what do you think they’d say about their current state of things?

They’d probably be pissed off but say they still have a chance to make a run in March.

Thats what I’m essentially saying. The people upset on this board have every right to be mad. But there’s still plenty of reasons to be optimistic and hopeful. UB can still make a run in Cleveland.

There’s no reasons for us all be attacking each other because one side is more optimistic and the other group of people are pessimistic.

 

[squire17]

One thing we can agree on. The woman singing “America the Beautiful” weighs less than 100 pounds. Oh now we’ve got a real heavyweight singing the National Anthem…she must go 115. I’m not going to let it stop me: I will gain 5 pounds no matter who wins.

Edited February 13, 2022 by squire17

[UBinMD]

56 minutes ago, squire17 said:

One thing we can agree on. The woman singing “America the Beautiful” weighs less than 100 pounds. Oh now we’ve got a real heavyweight singing the National Anthem…she must go 115. I’m not going to let it stop me: I will gain 5 pounds no matter who wins.

You do you!!

[DooleyBull06]

6 hours ago, ChubbyHubby said:

We certainly aren't living up to the pre-season hype, but we need to be happy with the W.  We're getting close to MAC tourney time.  It's time to live up to all of the hype

This times a million. Getting close to that time where the cream rises and the men come out to play. Losses to Canisius, bona, and the rest are forgotten if we handle business in Cleveland. To quote you, “It’s time to live up to all of the hype.” Well said.

[UB92]

16 hours ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

Starting posts like this is why this message board has become polarizing. It’s okay to state differing opinions but starting a response like that isn’t the way to do so.

I disagree.

There are plenty of takes I disagree with on this site, but the arguments that are made are reasonable, though I think other information should be considered and/or I wouldn't have drawn the conclusion that was drawn.  I don't comment on those.  As you mention, it is okay to state different opinions.  

In this case, I felt your take (i.e., "Whitesell has done well") was just so beyond the pale that it deserved being called out using the data I provided.

 

I actually thought your response was going to be something along the lines of "Yeah...maybe 'Whitesell has done well' isn't strongly supported...this is what I mean to say" OR "these are the reasons I think Whitesell has done well:  xxx, yyy, zzz".

It's a message board -- it is okay to have different opinions.  In fact, I had a post a while back encouraging different opinions that are well-stated and justified.   It is how I learn.   However, in this case...you had a really bad take.

 

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

1 hour ago, UB92 said:

I disagree.

There are plenty of takes I disagree with on this site, but the arguments that are made are reasonable, though I think other information should be considered and/or I wouldn't have drawn the conclusion that was drawn.  I don't comment on those.  As you mention, it is okay to state different opinions.  

In this case, I felt your take (i.e., "Whitesell has done well") was just so beyond the pale that it deserved being called out using the data I provided.

 

I actually thought your response was going to be something along the lines of "Yeah...maybe 'Whitesell has done well' isn't strongly supported...this is what I mean to say" OR "these are the reasons I think Whitesell has done well:  xxx, yyy, zzz".

It's a message board -- it is okay to have different opinions.  In fact, I had a post a while back encouraging different opinions that are well-stated and justified.   It is how I learn.   However, in this case...you had a really bad take.

 

Sometimes it’s hard to articulate points through text on a message board.

I was simply stating that based on previous UB expectations, Whitesell’s resume to this point would be considered solid by many. If you compare him to the Reggie years and early Hurley/Oats, Whitesell is doing fine.

But if you judge him based on recent expectations since Oats final two seasons, many would be upset. And as I stated in another post, I wasn’t just referring to expectations from the players and coaches. I was including media hype as well.

The fanbase thought this was a 20+ team that would win the MAC. As of now, that’s not likely. They could win the MAC Tournament but will most likely be no better than 3rd in the regular season.

I was explaining the divide between the positive and negative posters.

My post wasn’t complicated. I’m sorry you didn’t understand it. That’s partly on me but as I mentioned, it’s hard to get your point across on message boards sometimes but I thought you could’ve had a more polite response.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[Chet]

8 hours ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

Sometimes it’s hard to articulate points through text on a message board.

I was simply stating that based on previous UB expectations, Whitesell’s resume to this point would be considered solid by many. If you compare him to the Reggie years and early Hurley/Oats, Whitesell is doing fine.

But if you judge him based on recent expectations since Oats final two seasons, many would be upset. And as I stated in another post, I wasn’t just referring to expectations from the players and coaches. I was including media hype as well.

The fanbase thought this was a 20+ team that would win the MAC. As of now, that’s not likely. They could win the MAC Tournament but will most likely be no better than 3rd in the regular season.

I was explaining the divide between the positive and negative posters.

My post wasn’t complicated. I’m sorry you didn’t understand it. That’s partly on me but as I mentioned, it’s hard to get your point across on message boards sometimes but I thought you could’ve had a more polite response.

I understood your point and there was no reason to apologize. Your are a gentleman. Please correct me if I am wrong, but 11 of 12 coaches in the leauge picked UB as pre-season MAC favorites. The team has underperformed. I don't think that point is up for debate. I am fairly sure that the UB coaches and players alike agree with this point. 

[UB92]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:20 AM, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I was simply stating that based on previous UB expectations, Whitesell’s resume to this point would be considered solid by many. If you compare him to the Reggie years and early Hurley/Oats, Whitesell is doing fine.

But if you judge him based on recent expectations since Oats final two seasons, many would be upset. 

My post wasn’t complicated. I’m sorry you didn’t understand it. That’s partly on me but as I mentioned, it’s hard to get your point across on message boards sometimes but I thought you could’ve had a more polite response.

A few responses here…

A key factor between those three is talent level at the time.  If you just look at wins and losses, it hides what they actually did with the talent they had and recruited.  Expectations are based on what’s on the roster at the time, not necessarily eras.  If JW didn’t keep Williams, Segu or Mballa, UB would not have been picked 1st this year.  The talent and expectations on the court go hand in hand.  To just make a comparison based on expectations from one era to another is naive, in my opinion.  
 

Even an argument based on coaching experience wouldn’t favor JW since he was very experienced compared to Reggie, Hurley or Oats. 
 

I know your post wasn’t complicated, which is why it was easy for me to understand and respond.  I get what you are saying 100%, I just disagree with it as it is an apples to oranges comparison if you don’t consider the other, crucial mitigating factors.  Your tone didn’t matter in the discussion. 
 

However after writing all that, I didn’t mean to come off as impolite, negative or mean-spirited.  I am just being critical in the face of a point being made that I think is poorly justified.  That happens on boards like these a million times a day.  
 

If you have other arguments to back up your point about Whitesell doing well, beyond what you have already stated, bring them and convince me.  Your argument up to this point is that expectations are higher on Whitesell because of recent success of Oats at UB and if you compare him to expectations from when others were coaching, he wouldn’t look as bad (or “doing well”, as it were).  And my counter is that this is a naive take as expectations are a function of talent level relative to the league.  The coaches, almost unanimously, thought Whitesell has the best talent in the league so the expectations are rightly higher.   
 

I don’t disagree that there is probably a small factor in expectations associated with recency bias, but I suspect it is a minor factor and the expectations are based almost exclusively on talent.  

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

4 hours ago, UB92 said:

If you have other arguments to back up your point about Whitesell doing well, beyond what you have already stated, bring them and convince me.  Your argument up to this point is that expectations are higher on Whitesell because of recent success of Oats at UB and if you compare him to expectations from when others were coaching, he wouldn’t look as bad (or “doing well”, as it were).  And my counter is that this is a naive take as expectations are a function of talent level relative to the league.  The coaches, almost unanimously, thought Whitesell has the best talent in the league so the expectations are rightly higher.

Believe me, I understand what you’re saying. I’m not a Whitesell guy. I like him as a person and wish him the best because I support UB basketball.

I was simply speaking from the perspective of those that do support him, they would compare him to previous regimes prior to UB’s “golden era” and say that’s a more fair standard.

I’ve been critical of Whitesell during my podcasts in the past due to the current talent level on this squad.

As I’ve stated in previous threads in the past, I thought Buffalo should’ve went with someone else but I don’t want to start a completely different discussion lol

[John]

2 hours ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

Believe me, I understand what you’re saying. I’m not a Whitesell guy. I like him as a person and wish him the best because I support UB basketball.

I was simply speaking from the perspective of those that do support him, they would compare him to previous regimes prior to UB’s “golden era” and say that’s a more fair standard.

I’ve been critical of Whitesell during my podcasts in the past due to the current talent level on this squad.

As I’ve stated in previous threads in the past, I thought Buffalo should’ve went with someone else but I don’t want to start a completely different discussion lol

Iv’e noticed in some of the last few games Whitesell has seemed more engaged especially with the officials and during certain times in games that can play to our advantage and hope that continues. Does anyone else notice how much Quarles is involved with the coaching strategy with both Whitesell and the players?? I don’t think it was like that in the earlier part of the year. Go Bulls!!!

[UBinMD]

8 minutes ago, John said:

Iv’e noticed in some of the last few games Whitesell has seemed more engaged especially with the officials and during certain times in games that can play to our advantage and hope that continues. Does anyone else notice how much Quarles is involved with the coaching strategy with both Whitesell and the players?? I don’t think it was like that in the earlier part of the year. Go Bulls!!!

He may have thought senior leadership was going to take over this year, but perhaps he has decided he still need a bigger hand in directing the squad. Whatever is going on, we 8-2 over our last 10. Unfortunately the 2 were to Ohio and Toledo, but it's still been a solid run.

[squire17]

One thing I noticed yesterday (aside from everything positive for UB) was when Mballa attempted to bring the ball upcourt after a defensive rebound. He tried to dribble behind his back, and was called for a double dribble. The TV announcers alluded to the fact that in their day, anyone, other than a guard  would have immediately been pulled from the game. Mballa wasn’t. Later in the first half Williams had a reach-in foul called. It was his second foul, and there was about a minute remaining in the first half. Whitesell pulled him, but Williams was apparently whining about it. I didn’t like how that looked.
 

[DooleyBull06]

2 hours ago, squire17 said:

One thing I noticed yesterday (aside from everything positive for UB) was when Mballa attempted to bring the ball upcourt after a defensive rebound. He tried to dribble behind his back, and was called for a double dribble. The TV announcers alluded to the fact that in their day, anyone, other than a guard  would have immediately been pulled from the game. Mballa wasn’t. Later in the first half Williams had a reach-in foul called. It was his second foul, and there was about a minute remaining in the first half. Whitesell pulled him, but Williams was apparently whining about it. I didn’t like how that looked.
 

I doubt Williams was whining about being pulled with two fouls and a minute left in the first half. That’s just smart basketball. It was the right move. Perhaps he was whining about the foul call? As for Mballa…he should not be dribbling or shooting anywhere near the 3 point line and beyond. The only time he should be that far away from the rim is to set a pick. We’ve been a better team bc the players have cut the nonsense with trying to impress scouts and have started doing what made them good all along.