Jump to content
Buffalo Bulls - UB Fan Forum
Jeseph

Buffalo vs Army (12/14 @ 2:00 pm)

Recommended Posts

40 minutes ago, clodney said:

This was the worst defensive showing by a UB team I’ve ever seen at Alumni Arena and I’ve been following the team adamantly since 2003. 

Yes, sadly we've seen it a couple of times this season. It's shocking to see, after the great defensive performances that we've seen over recent years. Davonte is a great on ball defender, but their team defense surely shows some major holes over big stretches of games. This team shows flaws, having very little interior defense beyond Mballa. It's just really crazy to have watched them played such strong D versus a "strong" Depaul team 6 days ago, and then have it sandwiched between the Vandy and Army defensive debacles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Army seemed to hit a big 3 everytime we tried to make a run, kudos to them for a game well played. 50% from behind the arc will help anyone’s chances of winning. Army also had lot of easy layups down low, those were the points that drove me nuts. Guys seemed to be lunging for steals and losing their man, and when Army made the extra pass they had a guy wide open. Mballa looks fantastic, it’s a shame he wasted a great performance on such a dud of a game. Graves and Jordan seemed out of sync throughout, we're going to have to eliminate the turnovers if we want to be successful in MAC play 

Edited by UB05

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ubfan75 said:

I’ve been following UB Basketball since the days of Clark Hall

Glad someone still remembers me. 😉

Through 10 games we're surrendering an average of 76.7 points.  Through 10 last year we were at 65.9.  The schedules may not be apples to apples (including Daemen being exhibition this season vs. non-exhibition last year), but that defensive comparison, together with the recent trend, is concerning.  I don't expect to match last year's results in almost any category, but I would think that our success needs to start with tough defense, and we're not seeing that right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, promotherobot said:

I got mad when we lost to Dartmouth. But at this point losing to Army doesn't affect us much. We just have to win the tourney.

I've heard this type of talk so much, sorry to reply to you about it...but. Is all we care about making the NCAA tournament now? Because what we're going to win the National Championship or something?? Can we lose every game, win the MAC tourny and it's all good? I'm so tired of this warped attitude that success is only based on how far we get postseason. I sure as hell hope that attitude hasn't infected the team and they think these games don't matter. I don't think it has, but if so why even watch these games then? See you in Cleveland eh?

Stringing together high quality seasons, showing pride game in game out, is what this program should be about. Defending Alumni and putting a hurting on every team that walks in the door. Following our players because they're interesting kids who we hope will grow and eventually succeed.

Next up is a three game set for local bragging rights. Are we the dominant program in WNY that we all think we are? Time to focus on the now and forget about Cleveland.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

I've heard this type of talk so much, sorry to reply to you about it...but. Is all we care about making the NCAA tournament now? Because what we're going to win the National Championship or something?? Can we lose every game, win the MAC tourny and it's all good? I'm so tired of this warped attitude that success is only based on how far we get postseason. I sure as hell hope that attitude hasn't infected the team and they think these games don't matter. I don't think it has, but if so why even watch these games then? See you in Cleveland eh?

This is an excellent point. If this team stumbles through the MAC regular season, which seems likely, then manages to put together a miracle string of wins in Cleveland, which seems highly unlikely, then what?  The seeding in the NCAAs will be ugly, setting them up for a possible thrashing on national television. I'm not sure I'd want to see that with the magic of the last season still fresh in my memory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, sportscliche said:

This is an excellent point. If this team stumbles through the MAC regular season, which seems likely, then manages to put together a miracle string of wins in Cleveland, which seems highly unlikely, then what?  The seeding in the NCAAs will be ugly, setting them up for a possible thrashing on national television. I'm not sure I'd want to see that with the magic of the last season still fresh in my memory.

So let me get this straight...you guys would rather see us go 20-12 and play in the CBI than make a big dance? Are you kidding me! Do you not understand what making a big dance does for the program, university and community. So you guys would rather revert back the the Reggie days? Got it. Everything is residual. If we fall back into mediocrity who knows how long it will take to get back to a big dance. The goal is and should always be the big dance. Always! I have high expectations for this current team. Think we can compete for a MAC title still. So yea it comes down to Cleveland. But to get there we have to build. Games like today are two steps back after what was a big step forward against DePaul. No way should we have lost to Dartmouth and Army at home! So yea I fall into the camp of caring about making NCAA tournaments. If we are making tourneys then that means we are winning. I don’t know about you but I like winning and everything that comes along with it.

Note: Me personally I’m not saying our success is based on making the tournament or bust. And yes each game matters. Obviously they do which is why we comment here. They matter for building towards Cleveland. That’s the goal this year. To play our best basketball in Cleveland. Last year’s  goal was to try to secure at the very least an at large bid. Goals change yearly and in season, but I’m sorry the idea of not striving to make the big dance bc we might be 13 seed and lose is ridiculous.  How’d that work out for us when we smoked Arizona?

Edited by DooleyBull06
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, promotherobot said:

I got mad when we lost to Dartmouth. But at this point losing to Army doesn't affect us much. We just have to win the tourney.

This is garbage talk. Every game matters, every single game. That’s a losing mentality and these games matter. If we were so lucky to win the tourney, they’d be looking at these games when deciding the seeding. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There’s still time for the coaches and players to figure things out. But defensive performances like today and the continued poor 3 pt shooting will remain an anchor on any upside if they don’t improve. 

People are expressing concern for potential regression from where the program has been for the prior six years. My concern is with university and athletic department leadership. I fear it is lacking. And without visionary leadership and strong support things could regress. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not going to sugar coat it, today and opening night against Dartmouth we’re bad. Each has made me panic and lose all hope of building a sustainable program beyond Oats, but parody throughout the country is a real thing. UK loses to Evansville at Rupp, Duke lose to Stephen F Austin at Cameron, Cincinnati lose tonight to Colgate. You’re seeing it night in and night out.

 This year, like every previous year before last year will come down to Cleveland. let’s hope the figure it out by then. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, sportscliche said:

This is an excellent point. If this team stumbles through the MAC regular season, which seems likely, then manages to put together a miracle string of wins in Cleveland, which seems highly unlikely, then what?  The seeding in the NCAAs will be ugly, setting them up for a possible thrashing on national television. I'm not sure I'd want to see that with the magic of the last season still fresh in my memory.

I would frame this differently.  Of course, every game the team should be looking to play their best and win games.  Any loss is disappointing, especially one as ugly as yesterday.   However, this team was never going to run away with the MAC.  Going into the season my expectation for the team was a season similar to Nate Oats' first year when the Bulls were 17--14 heading into Cleveland.  That team won the three games in Cleveland and made into into NCAA.  In my mind, Oats' first season was a success.   I would say, if this team does that this year, it would be a success as well.  The key is to learn from the losses and reduce the inconsistency.  There have been a few that have indicated the team needs a leader, and I agree with these posts, that someone needs to emerge to lead the team.  They also need to work on locking down their defense.

Edited by DocCas86

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JoeyRattlesnake said:

I’m not going to sugar coat it, today and opening night against Dartmouth we’re bad. Each has made me panic and lose all hope of building a sustainable program beyond Oats, but parody throughout the country is a real thing. UK loses to Evansville at Rupp, Duke lose to Stephen F Austin at Cameron, Cincinnati lose tonight to Colgate. You’re seeing it night in and night out.

 This year, like every previous year before last year will come down to Cleveland. let’s hope the figure it out by then. 

Just catching up on the rest of the posts. While going 10-20, getting hot in Cleveland and making the tournament isn’t ideal, it is what it’s all about. Getting your team talked about and analyzed for the better part of a week by the entire nation is worth so much. Then pulling off an upset, like we did two years ago, will be remembered for years to come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ubbulls84 said:

This is garbage talk. Every game matters, every single game. That’s a losing mentality and these games matter. If we were so lucky to win the tourney, they’d be looking at these games when deciding the seeding. 

So I get crap for being critical after losing to Dartmouth, and I get crap for being cool with losing to Army?

My point is we aren't getting an at-large bid at this point, so these losses don't matter that much other than record.

At least this team shows flashes of being dominant. We have about 20 games to get our act together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

So let me get this straight...you guys would rather see us go 20-12 and play in the CBI than make a big dance? Are you kidding me! Do you not understand what making a big dance does for the program, university and community. So you guys would rather revert back the the Reggie days? Got it. Everything is residual. If we fall back into mediocrity who knows how long it will take to get back to a big dance. The goal is and should always be the big dance. Always! I have high expectations for this current team. Think we can compete for a MAC title still. So yea it comes down to Cleveland. But to get there we have to build. Games like today are two steps back after what was a big step forward against DePaul. No way should we have lost to Dartmouth and Army at home! So yea I fall into the camp of caring about making NCAA tournaments. If we are making tourneys then that means we are winning. I don’t know about you but I like winning and everything that comes along with it.

Note: Me personally I’m not saying our success is based on making the tournament or bust. And yes each game matters. Obviously they do which is why we comment here. They matter for building towards Cleveland. That’s the goal this year. To play our best basketball in Cleveland. Last year’s  goal was to try to secure at the very least an at large bid. Goals change yearly and in season, but I’m sorry the idea of not striving to make the big dance bc we might be 13 seed and lose is ridiculous.  How’d that work out for us when we smoked Arizona?

It's not at all that we shouldn't strive to make the big dance because we've already hurt our seeding so much. It's that the prestige we have earned as a result of our post-season success takes a real hit when we're getting blown out by bad basketball teams at home. Like you, I like winning and everything that comes with it. I also hate losing and what comes with it - including the rotten impression that a couple thousand loyal supporters left with yesterday after coming out in a snowstorm to see their boys get embarrassed. I know folks who bought walk-up tickets to both Dartmouth and Army. Are they coming back this year when we need a big crowd vs BG? It's very bad for the brand however you slice it.

Did the idea of becoming the mid-major power of the East just die in everyone's mind when Oats left? That's still a real goal in my mind, and yes the most important factors in that are MAC trophies and banners leading to tournament appearances/wins. But the regular season, especially home games, build the story of the program just as much as two weeks in March. Guys like CJ and Nick are UB legends for their post-season performances, but also for their overall win-loss records, scoring records, home records, and record book stats. Legacies are built on winter Saturdays too. 🤘🏼

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the comments of our coach after the loss.    He seemed to realize that this was going to be a tough game to get his guys ready for...and he failed.  

Jordan also commented that they weren’t necessarily ready to play and didn’t respect the opponent.   

To me, both of these comments are troubling.   Whitesell REALLY needed strong team leadership to offset what he doesn’t bring to the table.   And he doesn’t have it.   He may be a great coach in some areas and a fine teacher, but he could not coax out the required effort on defense against inferior opponents at home.   

Oats was a fiery guy.  Whitesell is clearly not that and, at 60 in a few days, he is who he is. Not every successful coach has to be the fiery guy, but he has to figure out how to get his team to respond.  He seemed to know this Army game was going to be a problem, but was not successful in what he did to address it before or during the game.  

He and his staff have work to do.   

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

It's not at all that we shouldn't strive to make the big dance because we've already hurt our seeding so much. It's that the prestige we have earned as a result of our post-season success takes a real hit when we're getting blown out by bad basketball teams at home. Like you, I like winning and everything that comes with it. I also hate losing and what comes with it - including the rotten impression that a couple thousand loyal supporters left with yesterday after coming out in a snowstorm to see their boys get embarrassed. I know folks who bought walk-up tickets to both Dartmouth and Army. Are they coming back this year when we need a big crowd vs BG? It's very bad for the brand however you slice it.

Did the idea of becoming the mid-major power of the East just die in everyone's mind when Oats left? That's still a real goal in my mind, and yes the most important factors in that are MAC trophies and banners leading to tournament appearances/wins. But the regular season, especially home games, build the story of the program just as much as two weeks in March. Guys like CJ and Nick are UB legends for their post-season performances, but also for their overall win-loss records, scoring records, home records, and record book stats. Legacies are built on winter Saturdays too. 🤘🏼

I agree that we should not be losing to a team like Army at home and agree some  fans will skip games.  I also would love to see UB become a mid major power of the east.  That said I think a regular season record of 23-8 or better  a year after losing five seniors and your coach is not realistic.  outside of Jordan/Graves we do not have a lot of experience in this team.  To me this is a rebuilding year and is about getting back to the NCAA tournament with a respectable record , 11/12 wins in MAC. If they do that they maintain brand and can build upon this for next few years.

That said a loss like the one to Army really hurts because we should not lose this type of game.  Hopefully the team / coach steps it up and behind to play at the level they are capable of game in and game out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, UB92 said:

I read the comments of our coach after the loss.    He seemed to realize that this was going to be a tough game to get his guys ready for...and he failed.  

Jordan also commented that they weren’t necessarily ready to play and didn’t respect the opponent.   

To me, both of these comments are troubling.   Whitesell REALLY needed strong team leadership to offset what he doesn’t bring to the table.   And he doesn’t have it.   He may be a great coach in some areas and a fine teacher, but he could not coax out the required effort on defense against inferior opponents at home.   

Oats was a fiery guy.  Whitesell is clearly not that and, at 60 in a few days, he is who he is. Not every successful coach has to be the fiery guy, but he has to figure out how to get his team to respond.  He seemed to know this Army game was going to be a problem, but was not successful in what he did to address it before or during the game.  

He and his staff have work to do.   

I didn’t see the comments myself but if Jordan said that then that is very troubling. I think that is one of the differences between last year’s team to this year’s team. We have a lot more higher rated recruits on this year’s team, but that seems like it could be a bad thing. Perkins, Dontay, and CJ has chips on their shoulders being under recruited and you could see that translated to their games. 

I think Jordan is still playing very hard and well. But it is his job (and the staff) to motivate the rest of the team. He is the senior PG and the most experienced UB player. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, SGBull said:

I didn’t see the comments myself but if Jordan said that then that is very troubling. I think that is one of the differences between last year’s team to this year’s team. We have a lot more higher rated recruits on this year’s team, but that seems like it could be a bad thing. Perkins, Dontay, and CJ has chips on their shoulders being under recruited and you could see that translated to their games. 

I think Jordan is still playing very hard and well. But it is his job (and the staff) to motivate the rest of the team. He is the senior PG and the most experienced UB player. 

As I said a number of times this team really has an entirely different makeup from the previous years. It does not appear they have a truly take charge leader. They up to this point do not have the mental strength to overcome when the game is not going in a positive direction. The games against Dartmouth and Army you could see the body language and mental side being very bad. In both games there was very little ball movement or defense and just one player playing one on one ball. Again we can say all we want about the potential of some of these players but that does not necessarily translate on the floor. Some of the comments from some of the fans around us were that the makeup of this team does not feel right. All of the momentum of Alumni being a tough place to play is now out the window. Every game is its own entity no matter what the competition is like on paper. I wonder if UB still has their mental coach like they had last year but not sure if that would help. This team should be concentrating on their next game only and not thinking about the MAC in Cleveland . It does appear we are not sure what we will get from this team from one game to the next. The next three games will tell a lot about this team’s future. Go Bulls!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not going to kill the team and bash the coach for losing to Army. The Bulls played below their capability and Army played awesome and hit shots. It happens. I don’t think this version of the Bulls fully understands that opponents will be jacked up to beat them at Alumni. It’s a big road game for whoever is coming to Amherst. I know the coach doesn’t feel this way but the players probably feel they can roll out of bed and beat clubs like Army at home. Well, you can’t, without putting forth maximum effort.  That’s been established. 
 

This always was a rebuilding/reloading year with a new coach. I didn’t expect them to win the MAC East division and who knows, maybe they will fare well in MAC play. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get that people here want to talk about how every game matters but it really doesn't.  This is evident by the Army game being the best attended game of the season and only drawing 3,600.

No one cares if we finish 3rd in the MAC or 5th in the MAC.  This is because no one cares about the MAC.  Sure, there are die hard UB fans on here that will claim that the MAC is awesome because the Bulls play in the MAC but we know it doesn't move the needle in Buffalo.

People in the Buffalo area and New York state don't care about a finish in the MAC if it isn't a championship finish.  We are playing for an NCAA bid.  People want to see a MAC dynasty and see NCAA/NIT bids.  This team is not getting an at-large bid.  So it is all about Cleveland.  That is how we get on the big stage.

The three games about to be played matter more to people than the MAC games--especially the big one with St. Bona--who is basically ranked even with the Bulls now in all the rankings.  We sweep the three local schools and we can remind people that we are the top team in WNY.  That means something.

But the reality is that this is all about March and getting into the NCAA tournament.  That is the only thing that matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dutchcountry7 said:

I get that people here want to talk about how every game matters but it really doesn't.  This is evident by the Army game being the best attended game of the season and only drawing 3,600.

No one cares if we finish 3rd in the MAC or 5th in the MAC.  This is because no one cares about the MAC.  Sure, there are die hard UB fans on here that will claim that the MAC is awesome because the Bulls play in the MAC but we know it doesn't move the needle in Buffalo.

People in the Buffalo area and New York state don't care about a finish in the MAC if it isn't a championship finish.  We are playing for an NCAA bid.  People want to see a MAC dynasty and see NCAA/NIT bids.  This team is not getting an at-large bid.  So it is all about Cleveland.  That is how we get on the big stage.

The three games about to be played matter more to people than the MAC games--especially the big one with St. Bona--who is basically ranked even with the Bulls now in all the rankings.  We sweep the three local schools and we can remind people that we are the top team in WNY.  That means something.

But the reality is that this is all about March and getting into the NCAA tournament.  That is the only thing that matters.

I could not disagree with you more, but there is no surprise in that.

You say "That is how we get on the big stage", but we have already been on the big stage a few times.   And we have been ranked for almost an entire season.  We were on lists of "longest undefeated teams" last year and "longest home winning streaks".  We were in the conversation the entire year.

That's what I see as success.  Last year was a big, big success.  I want that every year.  They talked about UB being the "Gonzaga of the East" last year.  Well...with those loses to Dartmouth and Army, we won't hear that again for a long while.

Basically, I am looking beyond "three days in Cleveland".  Any team can get hot and win for those "three days in Cleveland".  I want UB to be a constant force on the college basketball scene.  We saw it last year and I want it to happen every year.   EVERY GAME MATTERS when you are a team like UB trying to constantly establish your brand.  I 1000% disagree with you that "this is all about March and getting into the NCAA tournament".    I would have agreed with you ten years ago and I said so at the time.  We are past that now.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, UB92 said:

You say "That is how we get on the big stage", but we have already been on the big stage a few times.   And we have been ranked for almost an entire season.  We were on lists of "longest undefeated teams" last year and "longest home winning streaks".  We were in the conversation the entire year.

Would it make you feel better if I had said "that is how we get back on the big stage?  Obviously, I know of the past.  But it is just that.  Sustained success is how you get people to care.  It is too easy to be a one hit wonder.  Home winning streaks are fine but no one pays attention to them.  Can you tell me who currently on the list of the longest home winning streaks?  Who is in the top-5 of that list?  Since the list is important to you, I would expect you to know that answer. 

1 hour ago, UB92 said:

That's what I see as success.  Last year was a big, big success.  I want that every year.  They talked about UB being the "Gonzaga of the East" last year.  Well...with those loses to Dartmouth and Army, we won't hear that again for a long while.

Sure, who doesn't want that every year?  Even Wichita State wants that every year and they are pouring Koch money into the program and can't get it every year. 

I can want that and also talk about reality. 

1 hour ago, UB92 said:

Basically, I am looking beyond "three days in Cleveland".  Any team can get hot and win for those "three days in Cleveland".  I want UB to be a constant force on the college basketball scene.  We saw it last year and I want it to happen every year.   EVERY GAME MATTERS when you are a team like UB trying to constantly establish your brand.  I 1000% disagree with you that "this is all about March and getting into the NCAA tournament".    I would have agreed with you ten years ago and I said so at the time.  We are past that now.

There is no path to an at-large bid for this team.  The individual bullet points don't matter.  Would you find the season to be a success if they beat Army and Dartmouth and lost in Cleveland?  The NIT auto-bid is something that I want them to earn and never use.

This is all about Cleveland.  I want the program to feel comfortable trying new things and changing it up during the non-conference schedule to find what works and what doesn't.  I am not concerned that it might result in some additional losses because we are playing for a tournament championship in Cleveland.  That's what we have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Would it make you feel better if I had said "that is how we get back on the big stage?  Obviously, I know of the past.  But it is just that.  Sustained success is how you get people to care.  It is too easy to be a one hit wonder.  Home winning streaks are fine but no one pays attention to them.  Can you tell me who currently on the list of the longest home winning streaks?  Who is in the top-5 of that list?  Since the list is important to you, I would expect you to know that answer. 

Sure, who doesn't want that every year?  Even Wichita State wants that every year and they are pouring Koch money into the program and can't get it every year. 

I can want that and also talk about reality. 

There is no path to an at-large bid for this team.  The individual bullet points don't matter.  Would you find the season to be a success if they beat Army and Dartmouth and lost in Cleveland?  The NIT auto-bid is something that I want them to earn and never use.

This is all about Cleveland.  I want the program to feel comfortable trying new things and changing it up during the non-conference schedule to find what works and what doesn't.  I am not concerned that it might result in some additional losses because we are playing for a tournament championship in Cleveland.  That's what we have.

Our family’s opinion is that the regular season matters and every home game matters to all the fans that want to see the team play an exciting brand of basketball and we want the team to win and see an exciting game. Yes, the MAC in Cleveland and getting to the NCAA’s in March is great and would be the result of an successful season. But we go to these games to support the team and hope for wins and that is what’s matters. These last few years have succeeded in bringing a winning culture and renewed enthusiasm from fans and that is the tough part of the equation if the team does not continue the winning tradition. We will continue to support the team and hope improvement is made as the season continues. Go Bulls!!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Would it make you feel better if I had said "that is how we get back on the big stage?  Obviously, I know of the past.  But it is just that.  Sustained success is how you get people to care.  It is too easy to be a one hit wonder.  Home winning streaks are fine but no one pays attention to them.  Can you tell me who currently on the list of the longest home winning streaks?  Who is in the top-5 of that list?  Since the list is important to you, I would expect you to know that answer. 

Sure, who doesn't want that every year?  Even Wichita State wants that every year and they are pouring Koch money into the program and can't get it every year. 

I can want that and also talk about reality. 

There is no path to an at-large bid for this team.  The individual bullet points don't matter.  Would you find the season to be a success if they beat Army and Dartmouth and lost in Cleveland?  The NIT auto-bid is something that I want them to earn and never use.

This is all about Cleveland.  I want the program to feel comfortable trying new things and changing it up during the non-conference schedule to find what works and what doesn't.  I am not concerned that it might result in some additional losses because we are playing for a tournament championship in Cleveland.  That's what we have.

There is no path to an at-large bid for this team. -->  I agree.  I never said there was.

The individual bullet points don't matter.  --> I don't know what "individual bullet points" are.  If you mean "longest home winning streak" or whatever, it does matter.  It keeps the name of UB basketball in the eyes and ears of basketball fans (and recruits).

Would you find the season to be a success if they beat Army and Dartmouth and lost in Cleveland?  -->   Those are not the only games that are being played this season, so I can't answer that.  There is plenty of time to discuss whether the season has been a success after all of the games have been played.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...