Bryan Hodgson

[TheCommish]

2 hours ago, UB Horns Up said:

UB alums can live in denial but the reality is George Halcovage is a bad head coach. George Halcovage coaching is like singer Leif Garret not being able to sing and have a singer behind a curtain the girls would go wild back in the day for him. Now Leif Garret overtime became a better singer but he was very limited. Nothing is going to make Leif Garret Elvis Presley. There are Western New York high school coaches that would do a better job than George Halcovage. How embarrassing for UB basketball. The reality is Division 2 coaches like Mike McDonald would have done a better job than George Halcovage. There is no reason to get excited for UB basketball under George Halcovage just waiting until UB can afford to fire him. Stuff like this is exactly what is wrong with college athletics today. You can be a village idiot wait your turn and become a millionaire it’s a disgrace. I have more issues with college coaches brand new unproven with fat money long term contracts over paying the players some NIL money. If Bobby Hurley becomes available from Arizona State I would hire him back right away. UB is so bad Jim Whitesell would improve this team immediately. UB alums dreaming away are going to see what BSF sees. I realize with a UB education it takes longer to face reality George Halcovage is a bad coach. I see no real improvement just street basketball chucking up shots like former head coach Tom Parrotta at Canisius College back in the day. Tom Parrotta couldn’t coach either letting the players play street basketball. Sometime the Griffs would get hot and win a game or two but it’s fools gold in my opinion. UB Horns Up! Go Bulls! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Bobby will be available in 12 months probably. Jim wasn’t a bad coach, people didn’t like him because he wasn’t screaming and clapping. 
 

GH3 is not good but way better than Georgia southern coach. Hes very bad imo 

[trueblue32]

24 minutes ago, TheCommish said:

GH3 is not good but way better than Georgia southern coach. Hes very bad imo 

I don't have a strong opinion on this because I don't watch GSU basketball but GSU's coach inherited a similar caliber team/lesser program, they returned a smaller percentage of their minutes, and they have 5 D1 wins to UB's 2. It took Halcovage OT to beat GSU by 1 without their leading scorer. I'm baffled by the benefit of the doubt that people are giving Halcovage who has tanked a program legitimately as fast as I have ever seen

[RapidsFan]

3 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

What does a coach's salary have to do with NIL?  Schools do not pay NIL money.

Burke and Lembo are starting to cozy up to each other, and both have a history of demanding concessions/walking from jobs when they don't get their way. Lembo left Ball State when his budget wasn't what he thought it should be.

[MuchMany]

On 2/15/2024 at 3:12 PM, TheCommish said:

Bobby will be available in 12 months probably. Jim wasn’t a bad coach, people didn’t like him because he wasn’t screaming and clapping. 
 

GH3 is not good but way better than Georgia southern coach. Hes very bad imo 

People I know didn't like Jim because his teams ran terrible iso offense with no movement and he brought in increasingly shitty mercenary players. But you're right, his teams were also very low energy and fell miles short of the "blue collar" ideal.

That doesn't mean what we're seeing now isn't orders of magnitude worse, but the revisionist history doesn't help matters.

[Bullsboys]

1 hour ago, MuchMany said:

People I know didn't like Jim because his teams ran terrible iso offense with no movement and he brought in increasingly shitty mercenary players. But you're right, his teams were also very low energy and fell miles short of the "blue collar" ideal.

I think you were watching a different team to me- Per KenPom under JW they ranked top 20 every year in Pace of Play/Tempo - They played a fast uptempo style of basketball which is miles better than what we see now.

Also in 2 of the 4 years of JW Tenure they ranked top 100 in Offensive efficiency - Year 1 was almost a full rebuild where they lost CJ, Perk, Harris, Caruthers, McRae - Year 4 they lost everybody on the roster essentially 

MAC conference Rankings for scoring under JW;
2019-20 = 1st - 78.6PPG - Graves and Jordan were only returners who played meaningful mins on the last team
2020-21 = 1st - 81.4PPG
2021-22 = 2nd - 79.7PPG
2022-23 = 3rd - 77.5PPG - (Lost Williams, Mballa, Segu etc) - Full rebuild

For context;
2023-24 = 11th - 67.2PPG 

I don't see your point about us being a heavy ISO team though - because as you can see above we scored very well - Williams was a very good ISO player, as was Segu - Why wouldn't we ISO with them?
For the record I thought we were fun to watch and moved the ball plenty. 

What is done is done though - It just irks me the level of hate JW gets on here 

[DocCas86]

10 hours ago, Bullsboys said:

I think you were watching a different team to me- Per KenPom under JW they ranked top 20 every year in Pace of Play/Tempo - They played a fast uptempo style of basketball which is miles better than what we see now.

Also in 2 of the 4 years of JW Tenure they ranked top 100 in Offensive efficiency - Year 1 was almost a full rebuild where they lost CJ, Perk, Harris, Caruthers, McRae - Year 4 they lost everybody on the roster essentially 

MAC conference Rankings for scoring under JW;
2019-20 = 1st - 78.6PPG - Graves and Jordan were only returners who played meaningful mins on the last team
2020-21 = 1st - 81.4PPG
2021-22 = 2nd - 79.7PPG
2022-23 = 3rd - 77.5PPG - (Lost Williams, Mballa, Segu etc) - Full rebuild

For context;
2023-24 = 11th - 67.2PPG 

I don't see your point about us being a heavy ISO team though - because as you can see above we scored very well - Williams was a very good ISO player, as was Segu - Why wouldn't we ISO with them?
For the record I thought we were fun to watch and moved the ball plenty. 

What is done is done though - It just irks me the level of hate JW gets on here 

I was one who tried to remain optimistic in JW tenure.  For example, even last year, UB was 3rd best defense in MAC.   The nail in the coffin for JW was the 1-7 record (average 82 pts against vs 68 pts for) against top four MAC teams last year coupled with poor performance against Akron in Cleveland.  The better teams were able to shut down the ISO ball.   

Edited February 18 by DocCas86

[TheCommish]

9 hours ago, Bullsboys said:

I think you were watching a different team to me- Per KenPom under JW they ranked top 20 every year in Pace of Play/Tempo - They played a fast uptempo style of basketball which is miles better than what we see now.

Also in 2 of the 4 years of JW Tenure they ranked top 100 in Offensive efficiency - Year 1 was almost a full rebuild where they lost CJ, Perk, Harris, Caruthers, McRae - Year 4 they lost everybody on the roster essentially 

MAC conference Rankings for scoring under JW;
2019-20 = 1st - 78.6PPG - Graves and Jordan were only returners who played meaningful mins on the last team
2020-21 = 1st - 81.4PPG
2021-22 = 2nd - 79.7PPG
2022-23 = 3rd - 77.5PPG - (Lost Williams, Mballa, Segu etc) - Full rebuild

For context;
2023-24 = 11th - 67.2PPG 

I don't see your point about us being a heavy ISO team though - because as you can see above we scored very well - Williams was a very good ISO player, as was Segu - Why wouldn't we ISO with them?
For the record I thought we were fun to watch and moved the ball plenty. 

What is done is done though - It just irks me the level of hate JW gets on here 

Because he didn’t have “energy” and bench had less “energy”

[Tee4three]

JW was the modern day Reggie 

You would compete year in year out but never actually win anything meaningful

Two things can be true, Jim getting too much heat from this board and it being the right time to move on from him 

[Bullsboys]

4 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

I was one who tried to remain optimistic in JW tenure.  For example, even last year, UB was 3rd best defense in MAC.   The nail in the coffin for JW was the 1-7 record (average 82 pts against vs 68 pts for) against top four MAC teams last year coupled with poor performance against Akron in Cleveland.  The better teams were able to shut down the ISO ball.   

Again though - Last year was a full rebuild - According to KenPom they lost 93% of their returning offense from the season before - The fact they won 1 of those games is good considering it was a rebuild season...In 4 years of JW we made the NIT once and made it to a MAC Championship game and for 3 of the 4 years we were competing for top 4 all season.... He should have had more time.

I also think the games were entertaining, Up and Down Fast paced, High level Athletes - They were fun to watch!

[skrabukes]

1 hour ago, Bullsboys said:

I also think the games were entertaining, Up and Down Fast paced, High level Athletes - They were fun to watch!

You mean you're not entertained by this year's 2 win team?

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

After a 4-9 start, Hodgson has Arkansas State at 13-14 (8-6), winning 5 of their last 6 (only loss 77-73 to James Madison) and a KenPom ranking of 142 which is four spots back of Toledo (138) which is 2nd in the MAC.

This is all one year after they went 13-20 (4-14) with a KenPom ranking of 287. If this is what they're getting right away while Hodgson is still extremely raw as a head coach, I think it's going to turn out well for him.

Forget the reasons why UB didn't target him... One thing that is crystal CLEAR is that he was deserving of consideration and would likely have this team in a better situation than they currently are.

 

**NOT USING THIS POST AS AN INDICTMENT OF HALCOVAGE III**

Edited February 18 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[Tee4three]

Off topic kind of but watching Memphis vs SMU

Rob Lanier is coaching SMU now and looks to have his team going

When ub originally hired Whitesell, it was rumored they were close to hiring Lanier but he ended up going to Georgia st instead

I wonder if Lanier would have left UB for SMU or if he would have stuck around

That might have been the big miss in hiring by alnutt in hindsight 

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

10 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

Off topic kind of but watching Memphis vs SMU

Rob Lanier is coaching SMU now and looks to have his team going

When ub originally hired Whitesell, it was rumored they were close to hiring Lanier but he ended up going to Georgia st instead

I wonder if Lanier would have left UB for SMU or if he would have stuck around

That might have been the big miss in hiring by alnutt in hindsight 

I'm assuming he would've left for SMU either way. Big time pay raise and competition increase from the MAC/Sun Belt to the American and soon to be ACC. Lanier was UB's top choice entering their search at the time according to people I spoke with back then.

[Tee4three]

2 minutes ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I'm assuming he would've left for SMU either way. Big time pay raise and competition increase from the MAC/Sun Belt to the American and soon to be ACC. Lanier was UB's top choice entering their search at the time according to people I spoke with back then.

Agree if SMU came calling he would have left for reasons stated

But he never did a ton at Georgia st on paper, so I wonder if he went looking rather than SMU coming to him. But who knows that 

[Chet]

9 hours ago, Tee4three said:

JW was the modern day Reggie 

You would compete year in year out but never actually win anything meaningful

Two things can be true, Jim getting too much heat from this board and it being the right time to move on from him 

Ur takes are spot on today.

[UB Horns Up]

Again don’t sell New York Public Power House and New York State Flagship if you can’t even afford a St Bonaventure Bonnies basketball program who are one of the smallest schools in Division I athletics. UB the school, UB athletics and number one the UB high level donors look like fools. It’s time to either pay up if you are going to sell that or just stop with the delusions of grandeur at UB for athletics. If UB acted with more humble pie and not try to be something that obviously aren’t Buffalo fans wouldn’t take them to task over a losing year or two. UB is its own worst enemy by having pinochle noses grow for over 30 plus years because UB has trouble telling the truth along with trying to be something they aren’t. Maybe a television show the “Brady Bunch” should be watched about being yourself instead of trying to act like something you obviously aren’t in my opinion. UB Horns Up! Go Bulls! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[BrooklynBull]

11 hours ago, UB Horns Up said:

pinochle noses

[dutchcountry7]

On 2/18/2024 at 10:27 AM, Tee4three said:

JW was the modern day Reggie 

You would compete year in year out but never actually win anything meaningful

Two things can be true, Jim getting too much heat from this board and it being the right time to move on from him 

This is correct.

Reggie and JW both were solid MAC coaches.  They could compete.  But weren't likely to win anything of any significance.  They were each a steady hand.  Sometimes that is a good thing.  But obviously we want more and after the Oats years it looked like a failure.

 

[MuchMany]

On 2/18/2024 at 12:06 AM, Bullsboys said:

I think you were watching a different team to me- Per KenPom under JW they ranked top 20 every year in Pace of Play/Tempo - They played a fast uptempo style of basketball which is miles better than what we see now.

Also in 2 of the 4 years of JW Tenure they ranked top 100 in Offensive efficiency - Year 1 was almost a full rebuild where they lost CJ, Perk, Harris, Caruthers, McRae - Year 4 they lost everybody on the roster essentially 

MAC conference Rankings for scoring under JW;
2019-20 = 1st - 78.6PPG - Graves and Jordan were only returners who played meaningful mins on the last team
2020-21 = 1st - 81.4PPG
2021-22 = 2nd - 79.7PPG
2022-23 = 3rd - 77.5PPG - (Lost Williams, Mballa, Segu etc) - Full rebuild

For context;
2023-24 = 11th - 67.2PPG 

I don't see your point about us being a heavy ISO team though - because as you can see above we scored very well - Williams was a very good ISO player, as was Segu - Why wouldn't we ISO with them?
For the record I thought we were fun to watch and moved the ball plenty. 

What is done is done though - It just irks me the level of hate JW gets on here 

Their PPG was due to having leftover talent from Oats and leftover tempo from Oats. As we got further from Oats, the talent and coaching that made his system go fell off. The PPGs you cited aren't impressive once you consider we were playing a top 10-20 tempo in those seasons.

We do remember things differently, because I remember sitting in the crowd wondering why everyone was standing around the perimeter instead of moving through the D. Then we'd jack a late three and pray for the offensive board. Our assist rate fell off once JW became HC, even with a very good MAC PG in Rondo. Can anyone tell me what type of offense JW ran here? Coach Jacob, here's your chance.

As the Doc pointed out, the struggles of his iso ball almost always spelled doom against the top of the MAC. As good as Jeenathan, Graves, and Rondo were at iso ball, good teams knew how to shut it down when it mattered. Also, "iso ball players" aren't only good in iso situations, so mixing in running an actual offense that gets them in advantageous situations is what the best teams do. Kobe Bryant was an excellent iso player, but he also benefitted from offensive design that got him in pindowns, post ups, downhill off screens, etc. 

The offense was sustained by elite offensive rebounding led by Mballa and Jeenathan, which good teams were able to snuff out. His rosters never had enough shooting, quality or quantity. He basically tried to run Oats' run and gun dunks and 3's system, but completely forgot the most important part, outside shooting. It doesn't work without it.

His recruiting let him down in the end. I always pissed and moaned about it and they never corrected it. Quality players make everything go, or not go, in the end.

Edited February 20 by MuchMany

[Bullsboys]

1 hour ago, MuchMany said:

Their PPG was due to having leftover talent from Oats and leftover tempo from Oats. As we got further from Oats, the talent and coaching that made his system go fell off. The PPGs you cited aren't impressive once you consider we were playing a top 10-20 tempo in those seasons.

We do remember things differently, because I remember sitting in the crowd wondering why everyone was standing around the perimeter instead of moving through the D. Then we'd jack a late three and pray for the offensive board. Our assist rate fell off once JW became HC, even with a very good MAC PG in Rondo. Can anyone tell me what type of offense JW ran here? Coach Jacob, here's your chance.

As the Doc pointed out, the struggles of his iso ball almost always spelled doom against the top of the MAC. As good as Jeenathan, Graves, and Rondo were at iso ball, good teams knew how to shut it down when it mattered. Also, "iso ball players" aren't only good in iso situations, so mixing in running an actual offense that gets them in advantageous situations is what the best teams do. Kobe Bryant was an excellent iso player, but he also benefitted from offensive design that got him in pindowns, post ups, downhill off screens, etc. 

The offense was sustained by elite offensive rebounding led by Mballa and Jeenathan, which good teams were able to snuff out. His rosters never had enough shooting, quality or quantity. He basically tried to run Oats' run and gun dunks and 3's system, but completely forgot the most important part, outside shooting. It doesn't work without it.

His recruiting let him down in the end. I always pissed and moaned about it and they never corrected it. Quality players make everything go, or not go, in the end.

I disagree with inheriting Oats players being the only reason the PPG and tempo were high - When they were with Oats they barely played - Whitesell and his staff Developed JeeNathan Williams and Segu - See the stats below.

Yes - They were recruited by Oats Staff with Hodgson and Whitesell but they developed under Whitesell - That is a big part of coaching! Developing players! He also kept these players for their entire careers when they could all of easily jumped in the transfer portal at any point! 
Development and retention is huge!
The only noticeable loss from the rotation for JW with retention was when Skogman transferred out! 

Style of play that they ran was similar to Oats with a fast paced - set based offense. I 100% agree that the shooting let them down - Graves struggled shooting his senior year and Brewton/Jack were brought in to be shooters and were both inconsistent - Losing Skogman was big too as they didn't really have a big-man who could stretch the floor like Perkins/McRae did. 

I thought our offense was entertaining and good to watch - I enjoy these conversations though - they take me to better times compared to what we have watched this season - But I think when it comes to JW we can agree to disagree on the outcome! 

Also - I tried to upload screenshots of stats above - Ive never uploaded pictures before on here so no idea if they worked right or not - Im not the most Tech Savvy person out there 

 

[MuchMany]

8 hours ago, Bullsboys said:

I disagree with inheriting Oats players being the only reason the PPG and tempo were high - When they were with Oats they barely played - Whitesell and his staff Developed JeeNathan Williams and Segu - See the stats below.

Yes - They were recruited by Oats Staff with Hodgson and Whitesell but they developed under Whitesell - That is a big part of coaching! Developing players! He also kept these players for their entire careers when they could all of easily jumped in the transfer portal at any point! 
Development and retention is huge!
The only noticeable loss from the rotation for JW with retention was when Skogman transferred out! 

Style of play that they ran was similar to Oats with a fast paced - set based offense. I 100% agree that the shooting let them down - Graves struggled shooting his senior year and Brewton/Jack were brought in to be shooters and were both inconsistent - Losing Skogman was big too as they didn't really have a big-man who could stretch the floor like Perkins/McRae did. 

I thought our offense was entertaining and good to watch - I enjoy these conversations though - they take me to better times compared to what we have watched this season - But I think when it comes to JW we can agree to disagree on the outcome! 

Also - I tried to upload screenshots of stats above - Ive never uploaded pictures before on here so no idea if they worked right or not - Im not the most Tech Savvy person out there 

 

You misquoted be a bit. I said that PPG was high because of tempo and leftover talent, not that leftover talent was the reason for PPG and tempo. Whitesell rolled the ball out and said play "Nate Ball," and it became less successful the further we got from Nate's brain and his players.

And of course Segu and Williams didn't play much in their one year under Oats, as freshmen on The Best Team Ever. Then, to be expected, they became three year mainstays under Whitesell when CJ and Co departed. They were the two best recruits in UB history and we never sniffed talent like that again. I'm not sure JW had much to do with their recruitment either, as I was under the impression that BH and JQ were the recruiters in that order.

The staff deserves varying credit for developing Jeenathan and Rondo while here. Jeenathan absolutely improved, esp his outside shooting, handle, and decision making. Rondo on the other hand kind of stalled out and never reached the ceiling I thought possible. Mballa as well stalled and then regressed. I don't know who deserves what credit and blame for those developments, but I grant that JW had a hand in it all.

Retention is important yes, but it was also the key reason JW got the job in the first place, so it was expected and required of him.

Not sure I can agree to disagree, as the results speak for themselves. The outcome of his tenure was a failure to maintain the lofty national profile and success that Oats established. Further, a failure to even maintain our standing within the MAC as a perennial title contender that lasted for six years between Oats and Hurley.

The roster was increasingly pieced together by bad fits, short-term JUCO and transfer fixes (the opposite of what built our best rosters in the past), and our overall recruiting had fallen off a cliff. Fan support was drying up as on-court results worsened. Granted Covid and the new transfer landscape were new wrenches thrown into JW's tenure, but every coach in the nation had to deal with the same and I felt he showed a lack of agility responding to the emergent new reality of CBB.

It's easy to look at the shocking results this year and reminisce on the previous regime with rose-colored glasses, but the truth is the program had already fallen under JW. Recruiting was dead, we were playing challenging schedules that players nor coaches were up for leading to discouraging results, and overall energy around the program was low.

Everyone I know who knew JW and staff have the highest praise for their character and passion, that's never been in doubt. But the point remains, it was reasonable to call for change once it was clear that the lofty goals that we all have for the program had become out of reach. And I grant that this year has been a reality check regarding what our expectations should be. The resulting search, hire, and status of the current staff can absolutely be scrutinized, but I'm at least trying to keep an open mind by acknowledging where we're starting over from.

[UB92]

5 hours ago, MuchMany said:

You misquoted be a bit. I said that PPG was high because of tempo and leftover talent, not that leftover talent was the reason for PPG and tempo. Whitesell rolled the ball out and said play "Nate Ball," and it became less successful the further we got from Nate's brain and his players.

And of course Segu and Williams didn't play much in their one year under Oats, as freshmen on The Best Team Ever. Then, to be expected, they became three year mainstays under Whitesell when CJ and Co departed. They were the two best recruits in UB history and we never sniffed talent like that again. I'm not sure JW had much to do with their recruitment either, as I was under the impression that BH and JQ were the recruiters in that order.

The staff deserves varying credit for developing Jeenathan and Rondo while here. Jeenathan absolutely improved, esp his outside shooting, handle, and decision making. Rondo on the other hand kind of stalled out and never reached the ceiling I thought possible. Mballa as well stalled and then regressed. I don't know who deserves what credit and blame for those developments, but I grant that JW had a hand in it all.

Retention is important yes, but it was also the key reason JW got the job in the first place, so it was expected and required of him.

Not sure I can agree to disagree, as the results speak for themselves. The outcome of his tenure was a failure to maintain the lofty national profile and success that Oats established. Further, a failure to even maintain our standing within the MAC as a perennial title contender that lasted for six years between Oats and Hurley.

The roster was increasingly pieced together by bad fits, short-term JUCO and transfer fixes (the opposite of what built our best rosters in the past), and our overall recruiting had fallen off a cliff. Fan support was drying up as on-court results worsened. Granted Covid and the new transfer landscape were new wrenches thrown into JW's tenure, but every coach in the nation had to deal with the same and I felt he showed a lack of agility responding to the emergent new reality of CBB.

It's easy to look at the shocking results this year and reminisce on the previous regime with rose-colored glasses, but the truth is the program had already fallen under JW. Recruiting was dead, we were playing challenging schedules that players nor coaches were up for leading to discouraging results, and overall energy around the program was low.

Everyone I know who knew JW and staff have the highest praise for their character and passion, that's never been in doubt. But the point remains, it was reasonable to call for change once it was clear that the lofty goals that we all have for the program had become out of reach. And I grant that this year has been a reality check regarding what our expectations should be. The resulting search, hire, and status of the current staff can absolutely be scrutinized, but I'm at least trying to keep an open mind by acknowledging where we're starting over from.

If I was a debate judge, you'd have won this round.  

I think one thing that has taken a back seat in these discussions is the coaching itself.  I can remember a game when UB lost to Army under JW in a home game they had no business losing.  Oats would have exploded during and after the game...but JW just shrugged (verbally).   They are different leaders, different coaches...even with a lot of the same players.    Certainly UB is spoiled to have had Oats here and the type of play/effort/performance/success he got out of his players.

I know that this sort of "look back in history" is what we are doing now since the current team is at/near the bottom of the MAC conference...and we have to think about the glory days (even if they weren't that long ago).

[MuchMany]

1 hour ago, UB92 said:

If I was a debate judge, you'd have won this round.  

I think one thing that has taken a back seat in these discussions is the coaching itself.  I can remember a game when UB lost to Army under JW in a home game they had no business losing.  Oats would have exploded during and after the game...but JW just shrugged (verbally).   They are different leaders, different coaches...even with a lot of the same players.    Certainly UB is spoiled to have had Oats here and the type of play/effort/performance/success he got out of his players.

I know that this sort of "look back in history" is what we are doing now since the current team is at/near the bottom of the MAC conference...and we have to think about the glory days (even if they weren't that long ago).

Thanks for making it all the way to the end of my post 😅 I appreciate @Bullsboys perspective and understand that over an up and down four years, certain things stick with different people.

JW's second year was really good, 20-21. Graves, Jeenathan, Rondo, and Mballa is one of the better big fours in recent MAC memory. That MAC finals loss was a really big letdown. Who knows if the recruiting would have picked up if we'd have won, maybe things could have gone differently. But them's the breaks.

I wish you hadn't reminded me of that Army game. One of the most infuriating home games in my history of attending. 13-point favorites against a bad Army team and lost by 13.

[BrooklynBull]

1 hour ago, MuchMany said:

One of the most infuriating home games in my history of attending. 13-point favorites against a bad Army team and lost by 13.

Hence triskaidekaphobia.

[Bullsboys]

2 hours ago, MuchMany said:

Thanks for making it all the way to the end of my post 😅 I appreciate @Bullsboys perspective and understand that over an up and down four years, certain things stick with different people.

JW's second year was really good, 20-21. Graves, Jeenathan, Rondo, and Mballa is one of the better big fours in recent MAC memory. That MAC finals loss was a really big letdown. Who knows if the recruiting would have picked up if we'd have won, maybe things could have gone differently. But them's the breaks.

I wish you hadn't reminded me of that Army game. One of the most infuriating home games in my history of attending. 13-point favorites against a bad Army team and lost by 13.

That's the beauty of being a fan - We all have our own opinions and it sparks debate and opinions, its a pointless debate really as Whitesell got fired and its all been and done, good to hear all opinions though! I don't think Ive swayed your opinion and you haven't swayed mine but it's still fun to discuss!

I Agree 100% about the Army game, BOTH times, VERY infuriating games - I also remember the good wins too like Western Kentucky on the road Maceo dunking on that 7 footer, DePaul, Bonnies 2 times (JW had a fantastic record vs Bonaventure, Canisius and Niagara).

The last 10 years have been pretty sweet overall - Hopefully this season is just a blip - Time will tell on GHIII though!