NIL and it's relation to wins

[everlast2504]

2 minutes ago, NC_UBfan said:

With UMass joining the MAC and having a comparable athletics budget to UB at 40mil or so I was curious to see what they had in terms of Collective/NIL and well its pretty well defined. 
 https://umassathletics.com/sports/2023/9/22/massachusetts-nil
https://www.on3.com/nil/collectives/the-massachusetts-collective-188/

 "Patrick MacWilliams founded The Massachusetts Collective in October 2022 with a goal of signing three to five players on the men’s basketball team at UMass every season"

They have a very active social media presence promoting the collective and NIL opportunities for the players   https://twitter.com/TheMassCo
My hope is Alnutt and his team are working diligently to ensure UB athletics will remain competitive.

 

 

At first I was going to write how UB is a SUNY school and those politics are and have been ruinous for UB in the past. See UB2020 and the resignation letter from Simpson for past examples.

However both Albany and Stony Brook have NIL collectives....

There has to be something behind closed doors going on. I don't understand how UB can be much behind on this new NIL landscape. 

 

[MuchMany]

18 minutes ago, NC_UBfan said:

With UMass joining the MAC and having a comparable athletics budget to UB at 40mil or so I was curious to see what they had in terms of Collective/NIL and well its pretty well defined. 
 https://umassathletics.com/sports/2023/9/22/massachusetts-nil
https://www.on3.com/nil/collectives/the-massachusetts-collective-188/

 "Patrick MacWilliams founded The Massachusetts Collective in October 2022 with a goal of signing three to five players on the men’s basketball team at UMass every season"

They have a very active social media presence promoting the collective and NIL opportunities for the players   https://twitter.com/TheMassCo
My hope is Alnutt and his team are working diligently to ensure UB athletics will remain competitive.

 

Nice. But man, UMass has such a deeper hoops history and better fanbase. Really hard to compare.

[NC_UBfan]

35 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

Nice. But man, UMass has such a deeper hoops history and better fanbase. Really hard to compare.

I get it but athletic program success aside I think the point I was trying to make is, there is no reason based on comparable budget that UB should not have a similar matured collective/NIL program compared to UMass.The UMass AD approach to this new landscape is completely different from what Alnutt has taken with the same level of budgeted resources. At the end of the day I want UB competing and winning conference championships🤘🏽

[MuchMany]

17 minutes ago, NC_UBfan said:

I get it but athletic program success aside I think the point I was trying to make is, there is no reason based on comparable budget that UB should not have a similar matured collective/NIL program compared to UMass.The UMass AD approach to this new landscape is completely different from what Alnutt has taken with the same level of budgeted resources. At the end of the day I want UB competing and winning conference championships🤘🏽

I agree with you that re: budget we are peers and could expect to have the same things UMass has based on that.

I was only trying to explore why it is that even though we are budgetary peers, we have an entirely different NIL reality. The reason is that UMass has a built in diehard fanbase and UB has like, me and 50 other people. UMass has had dedicated organized fans since long before UB returned to D1. Both my folks are dual UMass and UB alums, and I remember as a kid going to a WNY alumni watch party for the 1996 Final Four vs Kentucky.

I imagine their AD has close relationships with them which helped when it came time to form the collective. UMass is also just more of a sports school sadly. They compete for National titles in hockey. That doesn't excuse ADMA's sluggish acceptance of NIL, but I hope we can learn from them and other more advanced peer institutions.

Edited February 27 by MuchMany

[UBinMD]

3 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

I agree with you that re: budget we are peers and could expect to have the same things UMass has based on that.

I was only trying to explore why it is that even though we are budgetary peers, we have an entirely NIL reality. The reason is that UMass has a built in diehard fanbase and UB has like, me and 50 other people. UMass has had dedicated organized fans since long before UB returned to D1. Both my folks are dual UMass and UB alums, and I remember as a kid going to a WNY alumni watch party for the 1996 Final Four vs Kentucky.

I imagine their AD has close relationships with them which helped when it came time to form the collective. UMass is also just more of a sports school sadly. They compete for National titles in hockey. That doesn't excuse ADMA's sluggish acceptance of NIL, but I hope we can learn from them and other more advanced peer institutions.

UB is actively working to setup a Collective and is soliciting money for the startup fees for a 3rd party administrator. Once setup it would be a not-for-profit collective that would focus on Men's Basketball and Football. If anyone is interested in helping with setup fees (NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE for this effort), let me know. 

[1975]

On 11/27/2023 at 7:34 AM, BrooklynBull said:

I am calling BS on the stadium as why people are not going to UB games.  I have decided against going to see any game because of the facility it was going to be played in.  I have never gone to a facility and said that I am not going to see another game because of the quality of the facility.  For all the people on this and other message boards or spying platforms (Discord for those of you scoring at home, or even if you are alone) claiming that the stadium has issues, I do not remember one person saying they were giving up going to games because of the facility, and yes I have gone to basketball and hockey games as well as concerts in the Aud.

For those who complain about soccer lines on the field, have you seen a Patriots' home game recently?  Soccer lines do not seem to be an issue for people in Foxborough.

Also, how many people beyond these boards are complaining about the stadium?  At most, and this is being very generous, there are maybe 15-20 people here who complain about the stadium.  As for removing the track, I know it has hurt UB for conference realignment in the past, but look at other stadiums that used to have tracks.  YOu can still see the make out of ht the track inside of them.  For four schools, take a look at Ohio State, Maryland, Wisconsin and James Madison.  If you look at the picture of the James Madison's facility in another thread, you can still make out the track.

I’m a UB alum. I go to every home volleyball game, women’s basketball game and softball game. I used to attend every home men’s basketball game (since 1971) but stopped very recently. Why? The facility, the parking, the concessions, the restrooms, the postgame traffic control all suffer from even moderately large crowds at AA. For me it’s just not worth the aggravation. I don’t attend football games for other reasons but the perception that you’re sitting a mile from the players certainly doesn’t help.

[TheCommish]

There is a huge power struggle with our limited resources, misconceptions, etc. university wants the would-be nil money for other projects, while nil money wouldn’t touch the university coffers but go directly to the player itself. The pie is not growing, the pie is adding a new slice “nil”

why buy or contribute to the school, when you can pay the player? If we’re not going to have nil and buy players, we should drop to d3 or go the patroit/ivy model.

[UB Horns Up]

The problem is now UB Bulls need Buffalo fans for NIL but unfortunately the UB players always came before giving the Buffalo fans a sports entertainment experience. Funny thing is now the entitlement of the athletes are going NIL and transfer portal that UB bent over backwards for improving their facilities for them at the expense of the UB fans with that dump that we call UB Stadium. It’s all coming home to roost for UB athletics and I think there is panic because they don’t know any other course then what they have been doing since the 1990’s. UB has lost generations of Buffalo fans not improving UB stadium when Buffalo fans were saying the UB stadium entertainment experience is terrible.

UB shouldn’t be building that $7 1/2 million dollars performance center it doesn’t really make much of a difference with NIL and transfers portals today. The Buffalo fans are here until they either they move from Buffalo or they pass away. The UB athletes are here 5 years or less. That $7 1/2 million dollars would have bought a great new scoreboard for UB Stadium to greatly improve the Buffalo fans fan experience. UB doesn’t get it sports is about the entertainment experience for the fans especially today more than ever. Why do UB fans think the Buffalo Sabres are getting a new scoreboard? Because you can’t guarantee winning but you can guarantee a good sports entertainment experience for the Buffalo fans. UB has lost decades of fans by let the Buffalo fans eat cake mentality giving over the top stuff to the UB athletes that are just passing through Buffalo for at most 5 years. The Buffalo fans wants are completely ignored by the decision makers at UB who ever that is it really doesn’t matter because they are wrong and now we have a terrible outdated UB Stadium with two crappy UB football and men’s basketball teams. But what do I know? I don’t get how very intelligent smart UB people can’t see what is so obvious. I could put Billy Bob and Bobby Joe in a UB uniform who cares someone will fill out the UB roster but you need to give to the fans that are Buffalo fans for life not 4 or 5 years. Nobody in the UB high places decision making can see that which makes UB come off as a joke and stupid in my opinion. UB Horns Up! Go Bulls! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[TheCommish]

5 hours ago, UB Horns Up said:

UB shouldn’t be building that $7 1/2 million dollars performance center it doesn’t really make much of a difference with NIL and transfers portals today. 

I agree and disagree with you. On one hand, I agree with the performance center and locker room may not significantly impact 2024 players. As previously mentioned, there is a growing trend among students prioritizing opportunities for financial gain through Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) deals, even if that means "dressing in a phone booth,"

However, I also differ in opinion to some extent. NIL money is a new slice of the pie, we either ask for more money to grow the pie or the slices get smaller. I propose a fundamental shift in the structure by advocating for the separation of the athletic department into an independent entity. Notable institutions like UCF, UFlorida, and Army have successfully adopted this model.

The potential advantages of this restructuring include the establishment of long-term coaching contracts and the reduction of bureaucratic hurdles. This model, already operational in certain institutions, is poised to become a more widespread and accepted practice in the near future.

UB stadium may suck but did we approach the Bills/NYS about shared venue? I know the politics were in play with OP land build. Busing students to OP or downtown for a FCS opponent would be awful. I don't think we lost generations of fans because of the sightlines or track, we were not very good for a long time. MBB was unwatchable between 91-03 minus 3 seasons, football was awful during Craig Cirbus D1A era. Now, our football and basketball have been horrendous, last 18 months? which may very well turn off 25 and 26 grads.

 

Edited February 29 by TheCommish

[everlast2504]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:38 PM, MuchMany said:

I agree with you that re: budget we are peers and could expect to have the same things UMass has based on that.

I was only trying to explore why it is that even though we are budgetary peers, we have an entirely different NIL reality. The reason is that UMass has a built in diehard fanbase and UB has like, me and 50 other people. UMass has had dedicated organized fans since long before UB returned to D1. Both my folks are dual UMass and UB alums, and I remember as a kid going to a WNY alumni watch party for the 1996 Final Four vs Kentucky.

I imagine their AD has close relationships with them which helped when it came time to form the collective. UMass is also just more of a sports school sadly. They compete for National titles in hockey. That doesn't excuse ADMA's sluggish acceptance of NIL, but I hope we can learn from them and other more advanced peer institutions.

SUNY rules about athletic scholarships pre 1986 ruined decades of history UB could of had. We have been playing catch up and at times there still seems to be some deeply embedded mindset that students are their for an education the school doesn't need athletics. Previous Presidents and ADs who want to change this perception were basically ran out the door or offered little support to see their visions through (Simpson and UB2020, White and to some degree Manuel and Green).  

The culture of leadership needs to change for anything to be effective. 

 

On 2/27/2024 at 3:44 PM, UBinMD said:

UB is actively working to setup a Collective and is soliciting money for the startup fees for a 3rd party administrator. Once setup it would be a not-for-profit collective that would focus on Men's Basketball and Football. If anyone is interested in helping with setup fees (NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE for this effort), let me know. 

Schools have had years to work on it. If Albany and Stony Brook can get things set up what is taking UB so long?

UB actively working on setting up a collective isn't a goal, plan or excuse anymore. Its a failure in leadership and process to not have it already done and running for almost 2 years now. 

[UBinMD]

1 hour ago, everlast2504 said:

SUNY rules about athletic scholarships pre 1986 ruined decades of history UB could of had. We have been playing catch up and at times there still seems to be some deeply embedded mindset that students are their for an education the school doesn't need athletics. Previous Presidents and ADs who want to change this perception were basically ran out the door or offered little support to see their visions through (Simpson and UB2020, White and to some degree Manuel and Green).  

The culture of leadership needs to change for anything to be effective. 

 

Schools have had years to work on it. If Albany and Stony Brook can get things set up what is taking UB so long?

UB actively working on setting up a collective isn't a goal, plan or excuse anymore. Its a failure in leadership and process to not have it already done and running for almost 2 years now. 

Or they could not do it at all and people could be still bitching about it in 5 years.

[DaBulls99]

1 hour ago, UBinMD said:

Or they could not do it at all and people could be still bitching about it in 5 years.

Exactly. Past is the past. Let’s move forward and give ourselves a shot. 

[BrooklynBull]

3 hours ago, everlast2504 said:

White and to some degree Manuel and Green

None of these three were run out of UB.  All three took positions that were steps up from UB, UCF, UConn and Auburn, respectively.  White and Manuel both moved up from where they went left for and are now in the SEC and Big 10.  Greene is now at Tennessee working for Danny White again.

[TheCommish]

8 hours ago, everlast2504 said:

SUNY rules about athletic scholarships pre 1986 ruined decades of history UB could of had. We have been playing catch up and at times there still seems to be some deeply embedded mindset that students are their for an education the school doesn't need athletics. Previous Presidents and ADs who want to change this perception were basically ran out the door or offered little support to see their visions through (Simpson and UB2020, White and to some degree Manuel and Green).  

The culture of leadership needs to change for anything to be effective. 

 

Schools have had years to work on it. If Albany and Stony Brook can get things set up what is taking UB so long?

UB actively working on setting up a collective isn't a goal, plan or excuse anymore. Its a failure in leadership and process to not have it already done and running for almost 2 years now. 

Or we spin off the athletic department into a separate 501(3)c non-profit then we don't have to worry about SUNY. It's very common and going to be a lot more common soon.

MBB portal opens March 18. we have no shot of raising enough money for the portal. Focus on next year’s portal and hs recruiting.

Edited March 2 by TheCommish

[UBlearns]

21 hours ago, everlast2504 said:

UB actively working on setting up a collective isn't a goal, plan or excuse anymore. Its a failure in leadership and process to not have it already done and running for almost 2 years now. 

Amen

[Chet]

https://x.com/NoahImgLikeness/status/1734642077655334923?s=20

[TheCommish]

9 minutes ago, Chet said:

https://x.com/NoahImgLikeness/status/1734642077655334923?s=20

Next year won’t be fun. UB is one of 100 schools without one. Need $1m or about $500k

Edited March 5 by TheCommish

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

These are all things we've been discussing for a few years on this board and there's been plenty of posters who have downplayed the importance of NIL in the college basketball landscape.

The reason I said the things I said at the time was because I had multiple D1 coaching sources tell me NIL was going to make or break programs heading into the future. It's one of the top things prospective head coaches look into during job interviews.

[NC_UBfan]

Found a interesting article speaking to how the UMass collectives think about the move to the MAC. 
https://www.gazettenet.com/UMass-NIL-collectives-thriving-more-than-ever-after-move-to-MAC-54249741

A few MAC programs don’t have much to offer from an NIL perspective aside from a few gift cards to fast food restaurants, so UMass is going to be positioned at the top of the conference in terms of NIL and should be able to easily compete with its peers – from a basketball standpoint, they’re in the top echelon of the A-10 as it currently stands.

“We're gonna be positioned to have a really strong NIL program, comparatively, in the MAC,” MacWilliams said. “I think we're in the top echelon of A-10 right now too, but in the MAC, I think it'll be a significant game-changer.”

 

[everlast2504]

1 hour ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

These are all things we've been discussing for a few years on this board and there's been plenty of posters who have downplayed the importance of NIL in the college basketball landscape.

The reason I said the things I said at the time was because I had multiple D1 coaching sources tell me NIL was going to make or break programs heading into the future. It's one of the top things prospective head coaches look into during job interviews.

My downplaying wasn't so much as we don't need it. But more of we don't need a lot of money to compete. We don't need millions to compete with the top athletes because we aren't going to get them anyways. I feel the public looks at the top deals and thinks all deals are somewhere in that realm. When the reality is that at the top the money may be millions, but on average NIL deals are well well under 10k. That's if there is any NIL deal. 

A UB collective could probably have a fund well under $1 million and still be highly competitive nationally. Recruiting goes hand in hand with this too. UB needs to be self aware that we are still going after mid major talent, with the off chance of getting an under the radar player. Maybe pick off a P5 bench player who will want to get more playing time and maybe a little more money, or even a little less money. 

 

[trueblue32]

56 minutes ago, everlast2504 said:

My downplaying wasn't so much as we don't need it. But more of we don't need a lot of money to compete. We don't need millions to compete with the top athletes because we aren't going to get them anyways. I feel the public looks at the top deals and thinks all deals are somewhere in that realm. When the reality is that at the top the money may be millions, but on average NIL deals are well well under 10k. That's if there is any NIL deal.

Agree with this and I also would imagine that the NIL deals people are hearing of in the first couple years are likely to the be the high end that gets offered at any point. If Akron supporters are paying $100k a piece to Ali and Freeman, are they seeing $100k in return for whatever business venture is paying them that? Akron reported an attendance of 2331 last game, and I'm supposed to believe those two are appropriately valued at a combined $200k? How many years of payments like that do Akron boosters want to make out of the goodness of their heart? Is the answer 0 if they don't make the tournament this year?

I do believe UB needs to get more organized on the NIL front, but I don't see any MAC school regularly posting a 6 figure salary cap. I think there's still a lot of settling to be done in the college landscape, with NIL and the portal being new, and kids still with extra years of eligibility from COVID. I don't think college sports will really ever go back to what it was but I feel like this is an NIL bubble that's about to pop, at least for mid-majors.

Edited March 5 by trueblue32

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

1 hour ago, everlast2504 said:

My downplaying wasn't so much as we don't need it. But more of we don't need a lot of money to compete. We don't need millions to compete with the top athletes because we aren't going to get them anyways. I feel the public looks at the top deals and thinks all deals are somewhere in that realm. When the reality is that at the top the money may be millions, but on average NIL deals are well well under 10k. That's if there is any NIL deal. 

A UB collective could probably have a fund well under $1 million and still be highly competitive nationally. Recruiting goes hand in hand with this too. UB needs to be self aware that we are still going after mid major talent, with the off chance of getting an under the radar player. Maybe pick off a P5 bench player who will want to get more playing time and maybe a little more money, or even a little less money. 

 

I agree with all of this. It honestly doesn't take a crazy amount of money to make it work at the mid-major level. Just need to compete with your peers in the MAC. Was shocked to hear Akron and Kent State don't have collectives in place.

Edited March 5 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[everlast2504]

1 hour ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

I agree with all of this. It honestly doesn't take a crazy amount of money to make it work at the mid-major level. Just need to compete with your peers in the MAC. Was shocked to hear Akron and Kent State don't have collectives in place.

I mean Akron had the rubber bowl.....

Kent state I'm sure they have something I can make fun of in their past. 

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

On 3/5/2024 at 1:29 PM, trueblue32 said:

Agree with this and I also would imagine that the NIL deals people are hearing of in the first couple years are likely to the be the high end that gets offered at any point. If Akron supporters are paying $100k a piece to Ali and Freeman, are they seeing $100k in return for whatever business venture is paying them that? Akron reported an attendance of 2331 last game, and I'm supposed to believe those two are appropriately valued at a combined $200k? How many years of payments like that do Akron boosters want to make out of the goodness of their heart? Is the answer 0 if they don't make the tournament this year?

I do believe UB needs to get more organized on the NIL front, but I don't see any MAC school regularly posting a 6 figure salary cap. I think there's still a lot of settling to be done in the college landscape, with NIL and the portal being new, and kids still with extra years of eligibility from COVID. I don't think college sports will really ever go back to what it was but I feel like this is an NIL bubble that's about to pop, at least for mid-majors.

Recently found out some interesting information. Without going into details, I think UB is aware of what needs to be done to get their program back on track.

[UBinMD]

2 hours ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

Recently found out some interesting information. Without going into details, I think UB is aware of what needs to be done to get their program back on track.

I think so too.