NIL and it's relation to wins

[DooleyBull06]

I saw a headline today that the NCAA might revenue share with athletes. Wonder how that would work and if that would “level the playing field”. Doubt it. I’ve said it and I agree with others, once funders realize they aren’t getting bang for their buck they will make deals multi year contracts. 

[Tee4three]

8 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I saw a headline today that the NCAA might revenue share with athletes. Wonder how that would work and if that would “level the playing field”. Doubt it. I’ve said it and I agree with others, once funders realize they aren’t getting bang for their buck they will make deals multi year contracts. 

Revenue sharing is coming if the NCAA wants to survive in my opinion 

Other options are gonna start to pop up, a major advantage the NCAA has is that it's already set up and already has money/revenue 

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

Here's a look at the official collective numbers from last year for all of the MAC programs: 

https://nil-ncaa.com/mac/

This breaks it down P5 vs. G5: 

https://nil-ncaa.com/

The MAC is super far behind their G5 peers:

https://nil-ncaa.com/group5/

Edited May 2 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[DaBulls99]

1 hour ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I saw a headline today that the NCAA might revenue share with athletes. Wonder how that would work and if that would “level the playing field”. Doubt it. I’ve said it and I agree with others, once funders realize they aren’t getting bang for their buck they will make deals multi year contracts. 

Can’t do that unless they’re employees. And once that happens the anti non-compete laws kick in. Are you withholding payment until the end of term? Good luck. 
That said, this is stupid. 

[everlast2504]

2 hours ago, Tee4three said:

This got me thinking is there rules about this

What is stopping a collective being a straight work around to paying athletes from the school?

True blue gives away a good amount of t shirts for free, I always just assumed that's what my student fee was for (half a joke)

Could the collective buy/make all the true blue shirt give aways, then sell them to true blue? 

 

I would think yes. 
However is sounds like it can be easily abused for things like fraud and money laundering

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

To give an update on NIL from a basketball perspective... Ohio raised over $200,000 this year for their men's basketball NIL collective.

[Tee4three]

38 minutes ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

To give an update on NIL from a basketball perspective... Ohio raised over $200,000 this year for their men's basketball NIL collective.

Gut feeling from me is that UB won't start seeing those numbers until wins start happening but hopefully I'm wrong and it's flourishing right now 

[DocCas86]

 

3 hours ago, Tee4three said:

Gut feeling from me is that UB won't start seeing those numbers until wins start happening but hopefully I'm wrong and it's flourishing right now 

Kind of a Catch 22 situation as wins will be less likely until the coffers start filling.  I know there is some reticence committing to current staff.  However, if money is not there and a change is warranted it may be harder to attract the right people.  

[UBinMD]

1 hour ago, DocCas86 said:

 

Kind of a Catch 22 situation as wins will be less likely until the coffers start filling.  I know there is some reticence committing to current staff.  However, if money is not there and a change is warranted it may be harder to attract the right people.  

[trueblue32]

2 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

Kind of a Catch 22 situation as wins will be less likely until the coffers start filling.

It's not though. We may need money to reach MAC championship caliber, but there's no way that Niagara, Fairleigh Dickinson, and the entire MAC (I won't list all the losses), are crushing us in the NIL department that badly. NIL existed (granted not as pervasive) when Whitesell was here and he bottomed out with 13 D1 wins in his last season. Halcovage needs to be able to put a middling mid-major team on the court with little to no NIL. He hasn't done that and throwing money at him will not fix that.

It's my firm belief that being a good mid-major coach in any era requires creativity and resourcefulness as we will never have top end resources. NIL is a new challenge but UB has never had the deck stacked in their favor and there have been people with visions that made it work anyway. Halcovage has done the opposite so far, he stacked his staff with inexperienced coaches who haven't had to make things work at a mid-major school. I will grant Halcovage that I think going after primarily international kids is an innovative way to deal with the threat of NIL, but it still hinges on the ability to identify and develop talent, which Halcovage has a failing grade on so far. People on this board still contend that Isaiah Adams actually regressed under him.

2 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

However, if money is not there and a change is warranted it may be harder to attract the right people.  

People didn't like when I said it but I maintain that the collective should be stashing MBB contributions for the next coach. I do think this will be an issue and I think the worst thing that could happen with that money is buy Halcovage a third year where he spends whatever money they do raise in an effort to save his job.

Edited May 7 by trueblue32

[Tee4three]

3 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

 

Kind of a Catch 22 situation as wins will be less likely until the coffers start filling.  I know there is some reticence committing to current staff.  However, if money is not there and a change is warranted it may be harder to attract the right people.  

Yeah it is a catch 22

Gotta make sure that the staff has the resources to be great

I think it starts moving if wins equal .500 or close to it this coming season 

I don't think it needs to be a drastic turn around to get money flowing 

Just can't have another single digits win season (which I don't expect) 

[DocCas86]

16 hours ago, trueblue32 said:

People didn't like when I said it but I maintain that the collective should be stashing MBB contributions for the next coach. I do think this will be an issue and I think the worst thing that could happen with that money is buy Halcovage a third year where he spends whatever money they do raise in an effort to save his job.

Do you think the next potential coach may look at not utilizing available NIL after one year as a negative? In other words, the administration did not support the predecessor.  Perhaps supporting GHIII is a bit of an investment in the program's future in addition to giving GHIII a chance at success.

Edited May 8 by DocCas86

[UBinMD]

1 hour ago, DocCas86 said:

Do you think the next potential coach may look at not utilizing available NIL after one year as a negative? In other words, the administration did not support the predecessor.  Perhaps supporting GHIII is a bit of an investment in the program's future of the program in addition to giving GHIII a chance at success.

Save your breath, it's no different than the group that wanted JW out the door on day 1. It will play out how it plays out. If there is NIL money available for MBB it should be used. As for spending on the Coach, we had the chance to parlay a larger buyout from Oats into a different coaching option and increase the baseline pay of our MBB Coach. We didn't do that and went the safe route, so we are back to square one (I'm not talking about hiring BH, we could have gotten a good D1 ready coach with HC experience and increased the pay to say $750k). Difference now is we have a collective, so it should be used. If GH3 and staff fail again this season, then there should be serious consideration to moving on from him. If he gets near .500 then I think you stick it out and see what Season 3 looks like. Time will tell and I will be rooting hard for their success.

It should also be noted that we likely lost out on 2-3 potential coaching candidates due to our lack of NIL. GH3 was talking NIL to the administration since day 1, it got a zap in the ass when Lembo was hired (I guarantee that was part of the negotiations for him to take this job). So now here we are, what are we going to do with it and who is going to support the cause?

Edited May 8 by UBinMD

[trueblue32]

2 hours ago, DocCas86 said:

Do you think the next potential coach may look at not utilizing available NIL after one year as a negative? In other words, the administration did not support the predecessor.  Perhaps supporting GHIII is a bit of an investment in the program's future in addition to giving GHIII a chance at success.

The collective isn't the administration. If I was a candidate I'd be a lot more interested in a nest egg of NIL money rather than an empty bank account that shows that we "supported" a failing coach (candidates will look at a 3 win season more objectively than fans).

52 minutes ago, UBinMD said:

Save your breath, it's no different than the group that wanted JW out the door on day 1. It will play out how it plays out. If there is NIL money available for MBB it should be used

This would be a more compelling argument if it wasn't for my long post history that showed that I was rather level headed about the Whitesell era and I actually received a lot of shit for it on this board. I think my standard for the program has not really moved (be a real contender for the MAC championship every year) and the demographic of the board has shifted to where I'm one of the more negative people here now because everyone else has stopped caring.

52 minutes ago, UBinMD said:

Difference now is we have a collective, so it should be used. If GH3 and staff fail again this season, then there should be serious consideration to moving on from him. If he gets near .500 then I think you stick it out and see what Season 3 looks like. Time will tell and I will be rooting hard for their success.

It should also be noted that we likely lost out on 2-3 potential coaching candidates due to our lack of NIL.

So in this scenario where we raise funds for two years and have nothing to show for it, how many people do you think are going to be throwing money at a program with a new coach? At that point we will be 7 seasons and two coach firings from our last NCAA tournament appearance. You acknowledge the lack of NIL was an issue when hiring and yet your proposition is to again go into a hiring search with no NIL money. What is a new coach going to fix the Halcovage dumpster fire with? I guess we'll just burn the first season under the new coach again while we try to raise money, but this time 8 seasons removed from the program being relevant.

Edited May 8 by trueblue32

[clodney]

3 hours ago, UBinMD said:

Save your breath, it's no different than the group that wanted JW out the door on day 1.

I mean, they turned out to be correct in the end, didn't they?

[Tee4three]

I sure hope the NIL collective isn't petty if they don't like a coach and take it out on the student athletes by withholding money for the players 

[trueblue32]

4 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

I sure hope the NIL collective isn't petty if they don't like a coach and take it out on the student athletes by withholding money for the players 

It's not about who they like. I'm sure Halcovage is a nice guy but he's bad at his job. There's nobody worth paying on the roster. Throwing whatever little money they have at bad players just because it's legal now is a surefire way to make sure that this program never improves

Edited May 8 by trueblue32

[DocCas86]

2 hours ago, trueblue32 said:

The collective isn't the administration. If I was a candidate I'd be a lot more interested in a nest egg of NIL money rather than an empty bank account that shows that we "supported" a failing coach (candidates will look at a 3 win season more objectively than fans).

This would be a more compelling argument if it wasn't for my long post history that showed that I was rather level headed about the Whitesell era and I actually received a lot of shit for it on this board. I think my standard for the program has not really moved (be a real contender for the MAC championship every year) and the demographic of the board has shifted to where I'm one of the more negative people here now because everyone else has stopped caring.

So in this scenario where we raise funds for two years and have nothing to show for it, how many people do you think are going to be throwing money at a program with a new coach? At that point we will be 7 seasons and two coach firings from our last NCAA tournament appearance. You acknowledge the lack of NIL was an issue when hiring and yet your proposition is to again go into a hiring search with no NIL money. What is a new coach going to fix the Halcovage dumpster fire with? I guess we'll just burn the first season under the new coach again while we try to raise money, but this time 8 seasons removed from the program being relevant.

First, yes you are correct, it would not be a lack of support from the administration, but you are calling for withholding support.

I am trying to understand your position.  What I conclude is you believe that last season was so bad that there is (nearly) zero chance that Halcovage can learn / improve and succeed as a head coach.  Time might prove that to be true.  However, if that is your view, shouldn't he just be fired rather than keeping him another year and withholding NIL.  It will certainly make it harder for him to turn things around.  Lastly, you are saying the prospective coaches would understand the NIL funds being withheld because one year is enough to deem someone a lost cause and it was wise to save up for next coach?

[DaBulls99]

20 minutes ago, trueblue32 said:

It's not about who they like. I'm sure Halcovage is a nice guy but he's bad at his job. There's nobody worth paying on the roster. Throwing whatever little money they have at bad players just because it's legal now is a surefire way to make sure that this program never improves

Would we have said Curtis Jones wasn’t a solid player or difference maker the summer after his freshman year going into his sophomore year? I’d say the consensus among all of us was he was just ok. He proved us all wrong and it happens all the time. 

[trueblue32]

24 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

I am trying to understand your position.  What I conclude is you believe that last season was so bad that there is (nearly) zero chance that Halcovage can learn / improve and succeed as a head coach.  Time might prove that to be true.  However, if that is your view, shouldn't he just be fired rather than keeping him another year and withholding NIL.  It will certainly make it harder for him to turn things around.  Lastly, you are saying the prospective coaches would understand the NIL funds being withheld because one year is enough to deem someone a lost cause and it was wise to save up for next coach?

I would love to move on to the next coach, yes. It doesn't appear that is going to happen, so saving NIL money for a new coach is the next best thing.

Probabilistically, ignoring everything else, given that Halcovage found a way to crash through the presumed floor of this program and post by far the worst season in UB history, I think it is unlikely that he will turn the program around. People are talking about him posting a "near .500" record next year as a win which should tell you how far he has cratered this program.

Now not ignoring everything else, his year 2 recruiting, and filling of Cage's staff spot (not to mention him leaving in the first place) does not suggest to me that he is making any major changes to his philosophy either. His approach to recruiting has been to primarily recruit high school prospects with no other D1 offers, while nothing about his track record suggests that he just has an exceptional eye for diamonds in the rough. Even if he did have an exceptional eye for talent, success with this strategy almost entirely hinges on each player making such a big jump in year 2 that it vaults us from last place into contender status in one season before they transfer out to better opportunities. I had a post in another thread about what freshmen on the last place MAC team have done for the last 5 years (hint: it's not win MAC championships). Then you need to repeat that every year.

I think coaches would understand that posting the worst season in school history would put a coach on thin ice, yes.

Now some questions for you:
-Do you think Halcovage will win a MAC Championship at UB? If so, when do you see that occurring by?
-What is Halcovage's greatest accomplishment since coming to UB over a year ago?
-What is Halcovage's greatest accomplishment as a college coach? Him specifically, not just being along for the ride with Jay Wright, what did he do at Villanova that spurred their success?

Edited May 8 by trueblue32

[trueblue32]

3 minutes ago, DaBulls99 said:

Would we have said Curtis Jones wasn’t a solid player or difference maker the summer after his freshman year going into his sophomore year? I’d say the consensus among all of us was he was just ok. He proved us all wrong and it happens all the time. 

Uhh no? He was a freshman 6'5" combo guard with a good jump shot that contributed to a team that won 6x as many D1 games as this past year's team. I feel like you don't understand the magnitude of how bad this team was last year. You would trade freshman Curtis Jones for any of last year's freshmen?

[UBinMD]

1 hour ago, clodney said:

I mean, they turned out to be correct in the end, didn't they?

Seems like everyone would have preferred what he had to offer than what we got last year. I am also not a big fan of revisionist history. I'll support what is provided to us because the athletes deserve our support. At the time, the administration chose not to use Oats success as a way to set that as a new plateau, they instead decided to make that our peak. They figured we keep as many guys as we can from the Oats era and try to ride it out. Let's not fool ourselves that if the rules of today applied then, our team would have been decimated.

Once that decision was made, you get behind JW and hope for the best. I gave him a lot of grace and rooted for him to be successful. Did it work out? He did ok, but did not maintain the standard set by Oats. Is GH3 going to get us back to the Oats era? Not sure yet, maybe but probably not. I also am a realist and know there is no way UB is going to eat the contract. I would be shocked if he didn't get 2 years more at least. We are not in the habit of throwing money at our failures and moving on. Since that will be our reality, I will hope for the best and root for the guys we have to come together and be successful.

Bitching about what could have been or rooting for the best of what you do you have is a personal choice. I assume those that take the time to post on sites like this at least would like there to be success. Running down a group of guys that haven't even taken the floor together seems premature. My beefs with the team last year I stand behind because I witnessed what was bad. I think the 4 remaining guys have promise and I am hoping they are successful with the new pieces, but we will still be an extremely young team, so I do not think we will compete for a MAC Championship. Making it to Cleveland is my goal for this group.

[UBinMD]

Not sure if any of you saw or read this. I respect him for actually giving an interview. He obviously has a plan in his head and is hopeful the guys he has returning and is bringing in can execute it. He is right about one thing, especially at the mid-major level, you have to work at it. We are not going to get the most naturally talented guys, it's going to take work. We all ooh and aah about Freeman. He was a walk-on destined for nothing, but every MAC team and many P5 teams would have loved him on their roster. You just never know what you have. Time will tell.

https://buffalonews.com/sports/college/basketball/men/buffalo-basketball-coach-george-halcovage-roster-transfer-portal/article_d06e28ec-0bbe-11ef-8341-e7955a93de70.html?mode=comments

 

Enrique Freeman - Look where he started, look where he ended up. How many people on the Akron fan boards were jumping up and down when they saw him added to their roster is 2019.

 

[trueblue32]

24 minutes ago, UBinMD said:

Enrique Freeman - Look where he started, look where he ended up. How many people on the Akron fan boards were jumping up and down when they saw him added to their roster is 2019.

 

I mean yes, Freeman, Massinburg, Antonio Gates didn't play football in college, etc. You know these stories because they are notable and exceptional. They're fun stories not roster building strategies. Akron stumbled upon and developed Freeman, but all but one of their committed players for next year had many, many D1 offers.

There's a difference between scouting an event and stumbling upon what you expect to be a true "diamond in the rough" to supplement your established talent, and only going after un-recruited players because you can't out-recruit anyone.

The walk-on part of Freeman's story is also interesting because the only walk-ons on our bench last year were on the coaching staff. Maybe there was a Freeman walking around UB's campus last year but we'll never know

Edited May 8 by trueblue32

[DocCas86]

1 hour ago, trueblue32 said:

I would love to move on to the next coach, yes. It doesn't appear that is going to happen, so saving NIL money for a new coach is the next best thing.

Probabilistically, ignoring everything else, given that Halcovage found a way to crash through the presumed floor of this program and post by far the worst season in UB history, I think it is unlikely that he will turn the program around. People are talking about him posting a "near .500" record next year as a win which should tell you how far he has cratered this program.

Now not ignoring everything else, his year 2 recruiting, and filling of Cage's staff spot (not to mention him leaving in the first place) does not suggest to me that he is making any major changes to his philosophy either. His approach to recruiting has been to primarily recruit high school prospects with no other D1 offers, while nothing about his track record suggests that he just has an exceptional eye for diamonds in the rough. Even if he did have an exceptional eye for talent, success with this strategy almost entirely hinges on each player making such a big jump in year 2 that it vaults us from last place into contender status in one season before they transfer out to better opportunities. I had a post in another thread about what freshmen on the last place MAC team have done for the last 5 years (hint: it's not win MAC championships). Then you need to repeat that every year.

I think coaches would understand that posting the worst season in school history would put a coach on thin ice, yes.

Now some questions for you:
-Do you think Halcovage will win a MAC Championship at UB? If so, when do you see that occurring by?
-What is Halcovage's greatest accomplishment since coming to UB over a year ago?
-What is Halcovage's greatest accomplishment as a college coach? Him specifically, not just being along for the ride with Jay Wright, what did he do at Villanova that spurred their success?

I guess turn around is fair play. Very poignant and direct questions

Do you think Halcovage will win a MAC Championship at UB? If so, when do you see that occurring by?  Based on what I have seen, I am not optimistic, but as long as he is the coach I will be pulling for him and think he should have opportunity to succeed.  My goal I had in mind for a new coach was competing for MAC by 3rd year. 

What is Halcovage's greatest accomplishment since coming to UB over a year ago?  I will concede last year was bad.  So I am not sure I have one.   However, I still hope the staff learned from this past year and that could be an unknown accomplishment.  Time will tell.

I am going to abstain from last question as I do not know enough about his tenure with Villanova.