Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[UB85]

56 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Bottom line is we were all spoiled by the Hurley/Oats eras. In reaching those heights it diminished what Reggie did for the program. In reaching those heights we expect more from Whitesell. Especially since he’s doing it with mostly Oats’s players. In reaching those heights we all fear that after next season we will return to the Reggie days...which now look like crap because we’ve seen what the view from the mountain top looks like. Next season expectations are still high. After that we will all need patience and understanding 

This university should always expect to reach the level of success brought by Oats and to a lesser extent Hurley. I thought UB was capable and had potential to be exactly as it was during the Oats/Hurley years going back 30+ years. Unfortunately the powers that be with the exception of the White eta always took the view we cannot do this or that. To which I retort, dammit yes you can! As with anything in life you first must believe then set goals and pursue them without hesitation or doubt. If you fail you’ll still fare better than those who do not have can do or we can’t do this or that attitudes. At least that’s what I’ve always experienced throughout my existence. And everyone here should demand that excellence over mediocrity always be pursued at UB. 

[DooleyBull06]

3 minutes ago, Erie County said:

Sure we do, but why do we need that patience? Our program was at the top but now we have to settle for close to Reggie days? 

Danny White actually knew what he was doing. 

Side note, I'd take Hurley back in a heartbeat. 

Patience in the fact that after next season the roster will be young. And for a few season after that the roster will be young. Generally young guys don’t win right away. The one fatal flaw under Whitesell will be that he had no one waiting in the wings to replace this senior class and next years.

[UB85]

Oats effectively recruited very good juco and other transfers who filled in spots for graduating players. So it can be done. You just have to able to recruit.  

[DooleyBull06]

2 minutes ago, Erie County said:

I get that,  bad due to that flaw, why does he get the chance to rebuild something he allowed to break down with no pipeline? 

The Whitesell era should be three years long. 

If he makes it to a MAC finals again does he not get that chance? Next year will determine how much runway he gets. If he wins the whole thing we are talking contract extension. If he flops completely then he’s on notice. If we make a semi or finals appearance then that will be telling to see what the administration feels about him. Do they reward middle of the road?

[DooleyBull06]

Just now, UB85 said:

Oats effectively recruited very good juco and other transfers who filled in spots for graduating players. So it can be done. You just have to able to recruit.  

Oats also recruited JUCOs with more than a year of eligibility. Really the only guy Oats brought in for a short period of time was Wes Clark. And god he was great. 

[UB85]

5 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Oats also recruited JUCOs with more than a year of eligibility. Really the only guy Oats brought in for a short period of time was Wes Clark. And god he was great. 

Clark was awesome wasn’t he? Too bad he didn’t play an entire year or better yet come here much sooner. I loved his pull up jumpers. 

[DooleyBull06]

2 minutes ago, UB85 said:

Clark was awesome wasn’t he? Too bad he didn’t play an entire year or better yet come here much sooner. I loved his pull up jumpers. 

It was love at first sight. He had such an old school game. His pull ups are what I wish Rondo could master. Am I crazy if I consider Clark the second best PG in school history? 

[UB05]

8 hours ago, NYS Bulls said:

This looks like we have a 50-50 division here. Many drafted players in all sports go professional at 18+. They are adults and for many better players, they are getting ready for their professional career (through NCAA), somewhere in the world. I also would like to state that much of the defense is not to blame the coaches because the players aren't executing. So it's ok to blame the players in the guise to give the coaching staff a pass? Which way is it? We can't have it both. If they are just kids, the paid staff should hold enough more accountability. Which is where I tend to fit in. I blame the coaches the most in these situations where they are up 6 with 90 seconds left and are pushing the paces with 25 seconds on the shot-clock with a graves three. That's coaching. That's the issues a lot of us have. Though, this team has one year left of success before a huge problem if they don't figure it out now. The current staff or team (whichever you want to blame) can't get over the current hump, reminiscent of Reggie ball. We can continue to blame CJ/Perk graduating, but we will now be 3 years past that, and I hope it's an allowable time for everyone for a team to be in the tournament again. 

I agree that it’s a bit of a hypocrisy, but my thought process is this: players are not perfect regardless of how well they’re coached. Adding to that, the high tempo pace we play at lends itself to high risk high reward results. It’s possible to give players a pass because they’re young amateur athletes playing for free, while at the same time thinking that the “fault” is partly theirs. At the end of the day the blame will fall on the coaching staff though, and I know personally I don’t have a smart enough basketball mind to see who should be bearing the brunt of the responsibility. As for the 3 years past oats comment, I agree. Next year is a huge litmus test and we have a strong roster going in. Really hoping we win the MAC.

[UB85]

37 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

It was love at first sight. He had such an old school game. His pull ups are what I wish Rondo could master. Am I crazy if I consider Clark the second best PG in school history? 

Wes could go all the way to the hoop when warranted, nail 3 balls and distribute the ball in an unselfish manner. He also broke pressure without difficulty. His game is what I wanted to see Jayvon develop some, but regrettably never materialized. Segu has the pull up but has yet to master it. I agree with you on #2. And if he played longer than he did likely would be #1 on that list. And I absolutely love Turner!

[DooleyBull06]

14 minutes ago, UB85 said:

Wes could go all the way to the hoop when warranted, nail 3 balls and distribute the ball in an unselfish manner. He also broke pressure without difficulty. His game is what I wanted to see Jayvon develop some, but regrettably never materialized. Segu has the pull up but has yet to master it. I agree with you on #2. And if he played longer than he did likely would be #1 on that list. And I absolutely love Turner!

Completely agree. 100%. Wes came over and you could tell right away he played P5 basketball. Will be fun seeing him again with Blue Collar U

[Jeseph]

Can we stop acting like making the MAC finals is noteworthy? If we’re a second rate mid major and that’s our ceiling I’m not interested.
 

We (I loved Reggie, look at my stupid avatar from the 2006 home game against Ohio) accepted it during the Reggie era because we had previously sucked an were new to the MAC. The only reason to accept that as the ceiling now is to accept that our administration doesn’t care to invest in further success.

I donate because I want more. If they don’t want more I’ll just be a casual fan of a casual program.

[DocCas86]

I know there has been much talk about team holes we have after next year.  How do people feel the three remaining spots should be used?  This is a chance as fans to offer ideas how best to sustain success of program.  I suspect transfer portal and  juco will offer options.  Since we currently will have two juniors, two sophomores and one freshman, I am thinking a nice balance would be to add one more in each class. Thinking would be to balance opportunity for next year with balancing team for future.  Of course this would be balanced against positional needs and available players.  But curious on other ideas how to best strategize recruiting to lead to continued success.  P.S.  if my idea has flaws which I am sure there are, I know people won't be shy to point it out.  I just ask that we put forth ideas respectfully.

[Ivantheturrible]

I really hope this tournament puts the rest all the disappointment that UB isn’t as good under Whitesell as we were with Oats. He’s out here looking like the only real competition to Gonzaga. If anyone really expected us to maintain that level when he left, they’re delusional. Oats is too good for a mid major. We were lucky we had him when we did. 

[skrabukes]

5 minutes ago, Ivantheturrible said:

I really hope this tournament puts the rest all the disappointment that UB isn’t as good under Whitesell as we were with Oats. He’s out here looking like the only real competition to Gonzaga. If anyone really expected us to maintain that level when he left, they’re delusional. Oats is too good for a mid major. We were lucky we had him when we did. 

Ivan for the win!

[Jeseph]

10 minutes ago, Ivantheturrible said:

I really hope this tournament puts the rest all the disappointment that UB isn’t as good under Whitesell as we were with Oats. He’s out here looking like the only real competition to Gonzaga. If anyone really expected us to maintain that level when he left, they’re delusional. Oats is too good for a mid major. We were lucky we had him when we did. 

Being upset with our first home first round loss and a season filled with only 2-3 wins against decent teams doesn’t equate to expecting every coach to be Oats.

[Ivantheturrible]

2 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Being upset with our first home first round loss and a season filled with only 2-3 wins against decent teams doesn’t equate to expecting every coach to be Oats.

I expect better than what we’ve had too don’t get me wrong. But context is very important here, year 1 with all our star seniors gone and year 2 with Covid, running into a better team in Ohio. It makes sense those seasons ended the way they did really. I have high hopes that next year we’re back in the tournament, seems like a fair trajectory all things considered. 

[BasketBull]

13 minutes ago, Ivantheturrible said:

I really hope this tournament puts the rest all the disappointment that UB isn’t as good under Whitesell as we were with Oats. He’s out here looking like the only real competition to Gonzaga. If anyone really expected us to maintain that level when he left, they’re delusional. Oats is too good for a mid major. We were lucky we had him when we did. 

I get what you're saying and Oats is a terrific coach but what he's done isn't magic, it's coaching practices that should be apparent and imitable with every practice. Whitesell was on his staff for 4 years and should be able to duplicate Oats' approach to the best of his abilities. If his aim was not to duplicate Oats' success but to highlight what he himself brings to the table I'd argue that's a fault not a strength of his hire and a betrayal of the very reason we'd have moved him up the bench to the HC position in the first place. 

[UB85]

21 minutes ago, Ivantheturrible said:

I really hope this tournament puts the rest all the disappointment that UB isn’t as good under Whitesell as we were with Oats. He’s out here looking like the only real competition to Gonzaga. If anyone really expected us to maintain that level when he left, they’re delusional. Oats is too good for a mid major. We were lucky we had him when we did. 

Oats had a plan to emulate Gonzaga, he had ideas on what was necessary to achieve that, had discussions with AD et. al.,  and I can tell you that it was given lip service and never taken seriously by those who needed to get behind it. Total fail by a tiny group of people. 

[DooleyBull06]

44 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

I know there has been much talk about team holes we have after next year.  How do people feel the three remaining spots should be used?  This is a chance as fans to offer ideas how best to sustain success of program.  I suspect transfer portal and  juco will offer options.  Since we currently will have two juniors, two sophomores and one freshman, I am thinking a nice balance would be to add one more in each class. Thinking would be to balance opportunity for next year with balancing team for future.  Of course this would be balanced against positional needs and available players.  But curious on other ideas how to best strategize recruiting to lead to continued success.  P.S.  if my idea has flaws which I am sure there are, I know people won't be shy to point it out.  I just ask that we put forth ideas respectfully.

Give me 3 freshman. All with height and length. A 6’2 PG, a 6’4 SG and a nice 6’6 wing. If that’s too much to ask for, give me guards, guards and more guards. As you are seeing in the big dance...guards are running the show. Any combo of a PG/SG/Wing is what we need. Guys that can penetrate, dish and make shots. And specifically freshman bc they can grow over 4 years. With next year being a free year bc they won’t be the leaders. They will be the future core. They can integrate and be role players next season then leaders in future seasons. The transfer portal and JUCOs are stop gaps. Freshman for sustained success.

Edited March 23, 2021 by DooleyBull06
Typo

[UB85]

4 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Give me 3 freshman. All with height and length. A 6’2 PG, a 6’4 SG and a nice 6’6 wing. If that’s too much to ask for five guards guards and more guards. As you are seeing in the big dance...guards are running the show. Any combo of a PG/SG/Wing is what we need. Guys that can penetrate, dish and make shots. And specifically freshman bc they can grow over 4 years. With next year being a free year bc they won’t be the leaders. They will be the future core.

Let’s hope!

[DooleyBull06]

This just came to my mind also...if Whitesell doesn’t bring in freshman that’s a big concern. Bc that means high schoolers aren’t buying what he’s selling. Williamson seems like a solid get. Now it’s time to build around him and Skogman. In 2 years with Hardnett as a senior, skogman as a junior and Williamson a would be sophomore, they need guards around them.

Edited March 23, 2021 by DooleyBull06

[DocCas86]

5 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

This just came to my mind also...if Whitesell doesn’t bring in freshman that’s a big concern. Bc that means high schoolers aren’t buying what he’s selling. Williamson seems like a solid get. Now it’s time to build around him and Skogman. In 2 years with Hardnett as a senior, skogman as a junior and Williamson a would be sophomore, they need guards around them.

I agree with the position and types of players you suggest.  I think I understand the idea of four freshman growing together in the program, but wonder if you sacrifice a little in Hartnett's senior year?  You would have Hardnett (SR), Gallion (SR) Skogman (JR) and possibly Zachery (JR) with four SO with five other scholarships.  Do you pepper in some experience in that second  year with the five recruits?  Also we would to have to hit on three underrecruited players, as I wonder if a lot of talent may have committed.  I don't know enough about recruiting, but are there that many under the radar guys left? That is an honest question on my part.

[121Merrimac]

I’d split the difference, and target 2 freshman for the future, and 1 junior to help bridge the gap.  

With 5 seniors next year, you could add 4 freshman and 1 junior.  That would result in 3 sr, 3 jr, 3 so and 4 fr. 

[Ivantheturrible]

1 hour ago, Erie County said:

Wait so Oats being good is supposed to mean what? The two aren't mutually exclusive. The program can still continue its upward trajectory regardless of where Oats is. The current head coach of UB can't recruit. 

No one expected #16 in the country. We did however expect not to lose in the 5-12 game, to not even qualify for Cleveland, lose an unchecked recruiter, not have a pipeline of players, and miss on many new players. 

I really don’t understand the knocks on recruiting, we’ve had some good recruits under Whitesell that never panned out due to situations you could never predict. That’s not on him I don’t care what anyone says. Look at chance Robinson. We were all excited to see him play and he was a good recruit. Look at Malik Zachary, same thing. You can’t with good reason blame those two screwing up the way they did on Whitesell. We also have Mballa because of him and his staff! I’m not even the biggest fan of him as a coach either, I promise. But I just don’t feel there is much logic in some of the gripes. In game coaching, yea that’s terrible. And it seems like he’s trying to run a similar team to Oats, but obviously he’s just not as good at coaching. That’s why he was fired from Loyola and oats is in the sweet 16. Up until the NIT game I liked the way we ended the season, played how we all wanted them too. I think going into next year while building off that can lead to a MAC title. 3 years seems fair and you can’t say there hasn’t been improvement from season to season, and even by the end of games this season. 

[Jeseph]

9 hours ago, Ivantheturrible said:

3 years seems fair. 

3 years seems fair, agreed. That being said it stresses me out that I don't see a lot of reason to feel that we're headed in the right direction with what is turning out to be a "rebuild". We had issues with depth this year and have a ton of [key] players headed out next year and question marks at some key positions for 21-22. This is going to be a huge lift on the recruiting front just to maintain stability let alone build toward future conference championships (yes, I believe that in the MAC this is the only acceptable goal).

9 hours ago, Ivantheturrible said:

you can’t say there hasn’t been improvement from season to season, and even by the end of games this season. 

I don't know that I've seen it? We seems to see the same issues with in-game performance: turnovers, scoring droughts, FT shooting, offensive flow, clock management, half time adjustments. I get that there are ways to chart efficiencies that look advantageous but it has to lead to winning against decent or better teams for it to matter.