Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[skrabukes]

25 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

So many names entering the portal makes me anxious. On the other end I hope our staff is reaching out...

I'd imagine that they are just sitting around sipping coffee. 

[Jeseph]

1 hour ago, skrabukes said:

I'd imagine that they are just sitting around sipping coffee. 

👍🏻

[skrabukes]

20 minutes ago, Erie County said:

That is probably true.

It's really quite remarkable that you or anyone else could even imagine that was a possibility for this, or any other staff in the country. These guys (and women) surely think non stop about their program. Anyone who doesn't wouldn't last long as a coach, even at a high school level.

But back to the thread at hand, I don't care where they come from, whether they are from another D1, juco, HS or elsewhere, I just hope they can find the best players and fits possible, in addition to retaining and developing our current roster.

Edited March 24, 2021 by skrabukes

[mikescherrer8]

10 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

It's really quite remarkable that you or anyone else could even imagine that was a possibility for this, or any other staff in the country. These guys (and women) surely think non stop about their program. Anyone who doesn't wouldn't last long as a coach, even at a high school level.

But back to the thread at hand, I don't care where they come from, whether they are from another D1, juco, HS or elsewhere, I just hope they can find the best players and fits possible, in addition to retaining and developing our current roster.

He doesn’t remember 90’s and Reggie years. 

[skrabukes]

3 minutes ago, MKBullsfan said:

This might have been answered before but can Graves come back for another year? Is that even possible? If yes, I think it could help his stock if we got into the tournament and if he just gets another year of college basketball. 

Why would we want him back? According to some here,  he's part of the problem.

[skrabukes]

8 hours ago, Erie County said:

 

Graves was part of the problem in 2021. 

So Graves was the problem? 2nd team all league and he's the problem.  I knew I was living in bizarro world. I guess if he wasn't MAC player of the year, he becomes the reason why they aren't still playing. C'mon man.

I can name several reasons why they're not playing or didn't win every game. Graves isn't on my list. While we have no idea if he'll be back or not, if you could even fathom a thought that next year's team would be better off without him than with him, than you're even more ridiculous in your thoughts than I considered. 

Again,  we all want UB to win every game, but to say that this season's (under you're standard of) performance was due to Graves, then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Edited March 24, 2021 by skrabukes

[mikescherrer8]

38 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

Again,  we all want UB to win every game, but to say that this season's (under you're standard of) performance was due to Graves, then I wholeheartedly disagree.

The majority of people complaining about Whitesell forget 90’s and Reggie era. We could always go back to that. The dark ages.

[DocCas86]

56 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

Again,  we all want UB to win every game,

We all agree on this statement and it is ok to have differing opinions on how we are doing.

Based on historic stats I have looked at, and things like overall record, MAC Championships, etc. the team rankings by coach would clearly be Oats, Hurley, Whitesell, and Witherspoon.  The question is whether we are closer to Hurley or closer to Witherspoon.  Looking at the stats, I would say that we are closer to Hurley.  Were there missed opportunities, scoring droughts etc that fall on the coach - yes.  But I would submit every coach / team experiences that to some extent.  I world love to see some stats on that.  For next year, the area of improvements include fewer turnovers, more forced turnovers, and FT shooting which my recollection is that this was not exceptional even for the 2019 team.  As for recruiting, there is a hole created by two events that I don't think anyone foresaw.  I am going to wait and see what is done with the remaining slots prior to making assessment, but I am optimistic.

 

[skrabukes]

37 minutes ago, DocCas86 said:

 As for recruiting, there is a hole created by two events that I don't think anyone foresaw.  I am going to wait and see what is done with the remaining slots prior to making assessment, but I am optimistic.

 

To me, this is it in a nutshell. You want someone or something to blame? This is it, and it's not Graves or the coaches.

[MuchMany]

52 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

To me, this is it in a nutshell. You want someone or something to blame? This is it, and it's not Graves or the coaches.

As the CEO of the program, the head coach holds responsibility for avoiding those situations though. Hunter Jenkins (who still has a UB webpage somehow), Chanse, and Malik all happening within a year hints at either natural poor character judgement or stemming from desperation. It has us in a roster hole, and we're all interested and hopeful to see how Jim gets us out.

[skrabukes]

33 minutes ago, MuchMany said:

As the CEO of the program, the head coach holds responsibility for avoiding those situations though. Hunter Jenkins (who still has a UB webpage somehow), Chanse, and Malik all happening within a year hints at either natural poor character judgement or stemming from desperation. It has us in a roster hole, and we're all interested and hopeful to see how Jim gets us out.

Nate had Quate, Moss (torian graham who never suited up) in addition to others that didn't pan out, left, etc. He overcame them and shined. This staff is more than entitled to the opportunity to fill those holes based on their past 2 years. Hopefully they will do so. We all love Mballa's game, he was their addition.  Hardnett is making strides. Another year of development from Skogman could prove a challenge for opponents.  Yep, we need guards. Those 2 guys were supposed to be them. Let's allow a chance to do so. As much as we want this staff to be psychic and predict who is going to stab someone,  rob someone,  or just leave, it just isn't feasible. Not for them or anyone else. Inevitably there will be some CJs and Perk's, and some Chanses/Quates. We just need to hit on more of the first group than the second. 

[121Merrimac]

1 hour ago, MuchMany said:

As the CEO of the program, the head coach holds responsibility ...

Good CEOs know how to surround themselves with a great supporting staff.  Hopefully UB will realize how important this guy was, and find a replacement.  
https://rolltide.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/staff/arnie-guin/1025

If teams are limited to a head coach and three assistants, is there a limit to the quantity of support staff?  The Tide seem to have several more than the Bulls.  
Of course bringing in the right players (from HS, or via the transfer portal) is important.  But getting/keeping them in the right state of mind may be even more important.  

[mikescherrer8]

33 minutes ago, Erie County said:

Always excuses, never accountability. 

Um, Graham left because Hurley left. He went to ASU. You are trying really hard on this one. 

So if that counts on Oats, we can count Noah Williams against Whitesell then? Great. Add it to the list. 

The difference was Oats went out and got Hamilton and Conner and won the MAC again. 

How do I work for you? I'd never be held to any expectations or standards. 

So him not checking through the work of one of his coaches falls on........no one? Missing on a quick three members (coach, pick up game fight, player leaving after 1 game) and another few for performance is exactly why many blame the coach. 

You can but the blinders on and try to pump up whatever facet of a 50-50 coach that you want, but if something doesn't change in the next few months, the team is in very rough shape after next season. 

How about you chill out, smoke a doob, and trust the process.

[clodney]

12 hours ago, skrabukes said:

Why would we want him back? According to some here,  he's part of the problem.

1. First time on a message board?

2. He was definitely a part of the problem. He was supposed to dominate and he put up his worst shooting display of his career in both FG% and 3pt%. Out of our top-8 (90%+ of the scoring), he was second to last in FG%, second to last in 3pt%, and second to last in FT%. He also led the team in turnovers. In reality, his biggest contributions came from blocks and rebounding but he was a mess on the offensive end. 

He also chucked up a ton of shots. He attempted 128 threes this season which is over 25% of the total for the team despite having a worse 3pt% than everyone not named Mballa. And he attempted the second most free throws which may have actually been the most if he didn't shoot 50% and lose out on the back-end of countless 1-and-1s.

He had a very rough final year and he left a TON of points on the table. I feel bad for him at this point because I know he must have hopes of continuing his career after Buffalo. Hopefully this was all temporary and he gets himself back in order for his future.

[skrabukes]

14 minutes ago, Erie County said:

Always excuses, never accountability. 

Um, Graham left because Hurley left. He went to ASU. You are trying really hard on this one. 

So if that counts on Oats, we can count Noah Williams against Whitesell then? Great. Add it to the list. 

The difference was Oats went out and got Hamilton and Conner and won the MAC again. 

How do I work for you? I'd never be held to any expectations or standards. 

So him not checking through the work of one of his coaches falls on........no one? Missing on a quick three members (coach, pick up game fight, player leaving after 1 game) and another few for performance is exactly why many blame the coach. 

You can but the blinders on and try to pump up whatever facet of a 50-50 coach that you want, but if something doesn't change in the next few months, the team is in very rough shape after next season. 

Noah Williams, really? The guy never even suited up here in any capacity and hadn't even had ink dry on any papers, whereas Graham was here on the bench and in practices with the team. In the end, you're never going to see my stance and I certainly won't see yours. You can continue to blame Graves and Whitesell for everything and that's your choice. While I don't know your athletic background, I know what it takes to compete and coach. Continuously knocking everyone isn't the way I work or how I'd ever want any colleague or staffer to work. I want nothing more than to see UB excel, which is why I've always donated and attended every game, even in the cellar dwelling days of old. I just simply can't see how you or anyone can sit there and just rarely have anything positive to say. Again, that's your choice, but I won't see it that way. You say it's because you "have high standards". If your standard is 90% MAC wins and a lock for winning in Cleveland,  than you're delusional. If you're standard is 70% +/- MAC wins and in contention year in and year out in Cleveland,  than I'm fully on board. Of course we want the first, but it hasn't ever happened in MAC history before. In fact, our run of 4/5 MAC wins is the best ever in the existance of the league and this team had a chance this year to win again. I'll take it.  This idea of "never held to expectations or standards" is embarrassing.  This team had 20 wins and was runner up in the league, not 4-14, and has players in place to have a reason to be positive, as opposed to being a constant negative. Many people here have never given this staff even a chance. Personally, I'd greatly love to know more of your successes as an athlete and coach so that we can pass those ideals on to this obviously clueless staff and players. 

[McBulls]

5 hours ago, skrabukes said:

Continuously knocking everyone isn't the way I work or how I'd ever want any colleague or staffer to work. I want nothing more than to see UB excel, which is why I've always donated and attended every game, even in the cellar dwelling days of old. I just simply can't see how you or anyone can sit there and just rarely have anything positive to say. Again, that's your choice, but I won't see it that way. You say it's because you "have high standards". If your standard is 90% MAC wins and a lock for winning in Cleveland,  than you're delusional. If you're standard is 70% +/- MAC wins and in contention year in and year out in Cleveland,  than I'm fully on board. Of course we want the first, but it hasn't ever happened in MAC history before. 

Hate to beat a dead horse, but I can't resist the debate. Plus I'm on vacation and my 2 year old is napping, so I'll unload my thoughts in stream of consciousness fashion while I have this window and beg forgiveness from the UB fandom for a long post.

You're right in the sense that this year wasn't a total loss. 2 seed, MAC finals, postseason birth in a meaningful tournament (NIT). Whitesell was brought on, seemingly, for a sense of continuity. He preserved what was left of the returning core from the Oats era- which, in the modern day (800+ names in the portal already this season, up from 430ish at this time last year) is an accomplishment in and of itself. Clearly he has better buy in from people more important to the success of this team (our student athletes) than from message board posters like me.

But there has to be room for criticism on a fan site. We had every advantage after Oats departure (returning core, name recognition allowing us to compete at our highest level ever for recruits, continuity in coaching) and did not capitalize as many of us had hoped. A lot of the frustration I sense on this board (and personally feel) is that we performed as less than the sum of our parts for the first part of the season. And the complaints were loudest this year at a point where we sat 4-4 in conference with several home losses. Many of those losses included complete no-show halves that put us in a near hopeless position to capture a W. When looking at our roster and realizing that we had a surging junior class complete with Williams (numbers similar to CJ), Mballa, and Segu and the return of an all conference player in Graves these results were a massive disappointment. When coupled with NCAA sanctions and two violent crimes committed by members of our roster at the open of fall semester, I think open complaints about the our coach and state of the program weren't just understandable but well earned. I guess where I'm going with this- as I made at least a few comments damning Whitesell- is that every comment the anti-Whitesell crowd is making isn't negative, and that this staff and team earned some of the condemnation thrown its way.

What's more, fair or not, once the level of expectations have been raised simple wins don't garner a similar level of compliments (which I believe you asked for in prior posts). My mother is a stern Scottish woman, and she was a teacher. When I brought home a 99, she replied: "What did you miss?." If I brought home a 93, she asked: "Oh, no. What went wrong?" And she describes the best meal of her life as: "not too bad." Around here, given our recent track record, racking up wins is expected- again, many of us feel our roster, given its intermittently oustanding play and pedigree, should be doing so regularly against MAC competition. Doing so isn't deserving of flowery praise- its the baseline expectation if we want to uplift this program to new heights. And even if we did steamroll, that would be our 99: What did we miss? What can we improve upon?

Can a season's success or failure can be captured in binary terms. Probably not. We surged. The staff and players deserve credit for turning our season around in the face of adversity. We ran out of gas against a rested and hot team in the MAC finals and lost a tightly contested NIT game against a team who was likely one win away from an at large berth. That said, I won't classify this as an unmitigated success, either. Our goal, year in and year out, is to win the MAC and make the NCAA tournament. I'm happy with 70% MAC wins and being in contention year in/year out. I remember the dark days, too. I'm not happy, anymore, if some of those seasons don't end with televised games on CBS/TNT/TBS in far flung cities. I think results, namely NCAA tournament appearances, matter, and should be how our coaches are measured moving forward. I don't want to be Kent St. I want to be Butler.

Is it fair to fire a man after a slightly above average season year 1 and improvement and MAC tournament final year 2? No. But if he keeps this core intact and can't bring us back next year, I don't see him doing it at UB. We have big holes to fill next year, and haven't had any semblance of consistent outside shooting as a team for two years, but with a few roster moves (PG, SG, perimeter defender to take on the likes of Jason Preston) should be right back at the table with a chance to dance. I think JW has earned the right to do so. I'll cheer for this team every step of the way. I hope he brings home a title. I've been wrong about our coaches plenty of times: I defended RW even after his dismissal (clean program, new heights I feared losing with change), dismissed Hurley just before our surge (big name and poor results when 6-6 mid way through season of first NCAA trip), questioned why we would follow Hurley with a high school coach (whoops?). I was wrong on every count. I hope I'm wrong on this one, too. Maybe I should argue more vehemently against him to ensure our success next year.

Also- side note- lets hope we never sink to this level:

https://www.thestarpress.com/story/sports/college/ball-state/2021/03/21/ncaa-tournament-drought-continues-affect-bsu-mens-basketball/4790626001/?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot

 

[skrabukes]

1 hour ago, McBulls said:

Hate to beat a dead horse, but I can't resist the debate. Plus I'm on vacation and my 2 year old is napping, so I'll unload my thoughts in stream of consciousness fashion while I have this window and beg forgiveness from the UB fandom for a long post.

You're right in the sense that this year wasn't a total loss. 2 seed, MAC finals, postseason birth in a meaningful tournament (NIT). Whitesell was brought on, seemingly, for a sense of continuity. He preserved what was left of the returning core from the Oats era- which, in the modern day (800+ names in the portal already this season, up from 430ish at this time last year) is an accomplishment in and of itself. Clearly he has better buy in from people more important to the success of this team (our student athletes) than from message board posters like me.

But there has to be room for criticism on a fan site. We had every advantage after Oats departure (returning core, name recognition allowing us to compete at our highest level ever for recruits, continuity in coaching) and did not capitalize as many of us had hoped. A lot of the frustration I sense on this board (and personally feel) is that we performed as less than the sum of our parts for the first part of the season. And the complaints were loudest this year at a point where we sat 4-4 in conference with several home losses. Many of those losses included complete no-show halves that put us in a near hopeless position to capture a W. When looking at our roster and realizing that we had a surging junior class complete with Williams (numbers similar to CJ), Mballa, and Segu and the return of an all conference player in Graves these results were a massive disappointment. When coupled with NCAA sanctions and two violent crimes committed by members of our roster at the open of fall semester, I think open complaints about the our coach and state of the program weren't just understandable but well earned. I guess where I'm going with this- as I made at least a few comments damning Whitesell- is that every comment the anti-Whitesell crowd is making isn't negative, and that this staff and team earned some of the condemnation thrown its way.

What's more, fair or not, once the level of expectations have been raised simple wins don't garner a similar level of compliments (which I believe you asked for in prior posts). My mother is a stern Scottish woman, and she was a teacher. When I brought home a 99, she replied: "What did you miss?." If I brought home a 93, she asked: "Oh, no. What went wrong?" And she describes the best meal of her life as: "not too bad." Around here, given our recent track record, racking up wins is expected- again, many of us feel our roster, given its intermittently oustanding play and pedigree, should be doing so regularly against MAC competition. Doing so isn't deserving of flowery praise- its the baseline expectation if we want to uplift this program to new heights. And even if we did steamroll, that would be our 99: What did we miss? What can we improve upon?

Can a season's success or failure can be captured in binary terms. Probably not. We surged. The staff and players deserve credit for turning our season around in the face of adversity. We ran out of gas against a rested and hot team in the MAC finals and lost a tightly contested NIT game against a team who was likely one win away from an at large berth. That said, I won't classify this as an unmitigated success, either. Our goal, year in and year out, is to win the MAC and make the NCAA tournament. I'm happy with 70% MAC wins and being in contention year in/year out. I remember the dark days, too. I'm not happy, anymore, if some of those seasons don't end with televised games on CBS/TNT/TBS in far flung cities. I think results, namely NCAA tournament appearances, matter, and should be how our coaches are measured moving forward. I don't want to be Kent St. I want to be Butler.

Is it fair to fire a man after a slightly above average season year 1 and improvement and MAC tournament final year 2? No. But if he keeps this core intact and can't bring us back next year, I don't see him doing it at UB. We have big holes to fill next year, and haven't had any semblance of consistent outside shooting as a team for two years, but with a few roster moves (PG, SG, perimeter defender to take on the likes of Jason Preston) should be right back at the table with a chance to dance. I think JW has earned the right to do so. I'll cheer for this team every step of the way. I hope he brings home a title. I've been wrong about our coaches plenty of times: I defended RW even after his dismissal (clean program, new heights I feared losing with change), dismissed Hurley just before our surge (big name and poor results when 6-6 mid way through season of first NCAA trip), questioned why we would follow Hurley with a high school coach (whoops?). I was wrong on every count. I hope I'm wrong on this one, too. Maybe I should argue more vehemently against him to ensure our success next year.

Also- side note- lets hope we never sink to this level:

https://www.thestarpress.com/story/sports/college/ball-state/2021/03/21/ncaa-tournament-drought-continues-affect-bsu-mens-basketball/4790626001/?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot

 

Well said. The biggest problem that I have with some of the posts/posters regarding this topic is that they have been seemingly against JW since day 1, and refuse to give him an opportunity to succeed (or not). It's much like politics when some people wouldn't give DT a chance and now some people won't give JB a chance. We have to allow for people to do their job and see what happens. If this was a complete clusterF, I'd be the first one to jump on board for change. These past 2 years have not been that (nor should they be, or ever be), but in the end, this offseason and upcoming season is surely a big year, starting now. It's an even odder year in that we don't know if any of the seniors will be returning (I assume that the staff knows or has ideas). This changes a lot of things. Heck, Summer was announced to be returning, that's major. If Graves would be returning (whether you are pro or con), it would be a big positive for us. If he doesn't, we surely need a few good adds (we need them either way, but Graves could stem the tide for another year). There are thousands upon thousands of players out there. The staff will find players to fill the open spots. Let's hope they can find not only the best ones, but the right ones. I've had the faith and am keeping the faith, and would love nothing more than seeing this team (actually SEEING AT THE GAMES, not on tv only!) at the top of the league next year.

 

Edit, recent tweet from Graves says "on to the next chapter". Definitely wish him the best. Gotta fill that hole and build some more!

Edited March 24, 2021 by skrabukes

[BasketBull]

1 hour ago, skrabukes said:

Well said. The biggest problem that I have with some of the posts/posters regarding this topic is that they have been seemingly against JW since day 1, and refuse to give him an opportunity to succeed (or not). It's much like politics when some people wouldn't give DT a chance and now some people won't give JB a chance.

lol

[dutchcountry7]

- MAC Regular Season Runner-up.

- MAC conference tournament runner-up. (One win from dancing)

- NIT at-large Selection

- Finished top-75 nationally in nearly every computer ranking.  
 

This isn’t doom and gloom.   This talk just undermines recruiting.  
 

 

[NYS Bulls]

2 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

- MAC Regular Season Runner-up.

- MAC conference tournament runner-up. (One win from dancing)

- NIT at-large Selection

- Finished top-75 nationally in nearly every computer ranking.  
 

This isn’t doom and gloom.   This talk just undermines recruiting.  
 

 

What recruiting? In an era where everyone has some form of instant communication and verbal commits hawks everything, we have nothing going on.

Except Nowheresville PG

[UBlearns]

14 hours ago, NYS Bulls said:

What recruiting? In an era where everyone has some form of instant communication and verbal commits hawks everything, we have nothing going on.

Except Nowheresville PG

I dunno, man.  It seems kinda ludicrous to assume the coaching staff is not recruiting.  It is quite literally a major component of their jobs.  We can argue recruiting success, efficacy, etc. all day, but unless there's some sort of NCAA probation blackout period, these guys are out recruiting.

[Jeseph]

2 minutes ago, UBlearns said:

I dunno, man.  It seems kinda ludicrous to assume the coaching staff is not recruiting.  It is quite literally a major component of their jobs.  We can argue recruiting success, efficacy, etc. all day, but unless there's some sort of NCAA probation blackout period, these guys are out recruiting.

I think we're just getting anxious at the lack of "names on the board" despite the flurry of activity in the Transfer Portal and the gaps or (hopefully not) instability in the roster moving forward.

[121Merrimac]

Maybe the coaches want to avoid incidents similar to what happened earlier this year, and are taking extra time for deeper background checks?

[UBinMD]

2 hours ago, Jeseph said:

I think we're just getting anxious at the lack of "names on the board" despite the flurry of activity in the Transfer Portal and the gaps or (hopefully not) instability in the roster moving forward.

I know Graves basically tweeted that’s he’s moving on, but maybe Brock, Nickleberry, Fagen may be in talks with the staff which changes our available scholarships. Pure speculation from me, but don’t know.

[Dabulls]

2 hours ago, Jeseph said:

I think we're just getting anxious at the lack of "names on the board" despite the flurry of activity in the Transfer Portal and the gaps or (hopefully not) instability in the roster moving forward.

I was thinking the same thing, ok so maybe we aren’t going after HS recruits, doesn’t mean we are not in contact with potential transfers. We don’t know who we are contacting until they commit, like Brewton. I had no clue of his offer to UB until he committed