Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[DooleyBull06]

30 minutes ago, trueblue32 said:

Eh it’s a fun tag line but they were also at one point coaches on their way up. It’s a cycle but one has a track record of already doing it. I’m not against either but completely ruling someone out for a MAC job for not meeting high major standards is pretty silly. I listed like 5 coaches who followed this path and run a top 100 mid-major. I forgot Ritchie McKay at Liberty, there may be others. It seems like a pretty high hit rate if you have the resources to get one. I think people saw one top 25 season and believe we’re destined for that every year when we don’t have the facilities or resources to do that. Being a consistent top 100 program is not a small accomplishment at the mid-major level.

To this point…western Kentucky fired their coach. And he’s highly regarded as a coach and recruiter. 

[UBinMD]

20 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

To this point…western Kentucky fired their coach. And he’s highly regarded as a coach and recruiter. 

Outside of a few outliers, most coaches overstay their welcome. it's hard to keep it fresh year in, year out. Sometime you need a fresh start to rejuvenate both sides.

[squire17]

Think UB could get Pat Riley here to at least interview?

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

26 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

To this point…western Kentucky fired their coach. And he’s highly regarded as a coach and recruiter. 

Being a good recruiter doesn't mean you'll be a good coach. It's an important skillset but not the only one.

Some people are X & O guys, other coaches specialize in developing players and some focus on recruiting.

The key is to have a solid staff that can excel in each category. WKU wasn't winning at the level expected when they hired Rick Stansbury. He had tremendous recruiting classes but couldn't guide them to the tournament during his seven seasons. Despite that, he still was winning at a very high rate and won 20+ games 14 times in his career including his time at Mississippi State. 

I'm not a supporter of Hodgson because he can recruit. I'm a fan of his because he's an ELITE recruiter. If he ends up being their choice, I'll be happy but I'm also content with the other guys mentioned on the lists being leaked to the media.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[UBinMD]

5 minutes ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

Being a good recruiter doesn't mean you'll be a good coach. It's an important skillset but not the only one.

Some people are X & O guys, other coaches specialize in developing players and some focus on recruiting.

The key is to have a solid staff that can excel in each category. WKU wasn't winning at the level expected when they hired Rick Stansbury. He had tremendous recruiting classes but couldn't guide them to the tournament during his seven seasons. Despite that, he still was winning at a very high rate and won 20+ games 14 times in his career including his time at Mississippi State. 

I'm not a supporter of Hodgson because he can recruit. I'm a fan of his because he's an ELITE recruiter. If he ends up being their choice, I'll be happy but I'm also content with the other guys mentioned on the lists being leaked to the media.

You obviously have a lot of inside intel. Do you think Hodgson could continue to be an ELITE recruiter back at UB? Currently he can point to the coaching success of Oats, but without Oats, is there enough there to bring the guys in? Also, wouldn't he have to give up a lot of the things he does well to be the HC? Not being critical if that is the direction, I'm curious on your take. In my business, being really, really good at a component of the job doesn't make you a great leader of the whole, in many cases it seems to be a detriment because they tend to revert back to what they are good at and comfortable with, which detracts for the overall leadership. I continue to go back to the NFL where really good OC/DC people often suck when they get the HC seat. I would rather have a great X and O guy that has run a team that brings in a really, really good recruiter. Just my opinion.

[Big 4 Hoops Blogger]

20 minutes ago, UBinMD said:

You obviously have a lot of inside intel. Do you think Hodgson could continue to be an ELITE recruiter back at UB? Currently he can point to the coaching success of Oats, but without Oats, is there enough there to bring the guys in? Also, wouldn't he have to give up a lot of the things he does well to be the HC? Not being critical if that is the direction, I'm curious on your take. In my business, being really, really good at a component of the job doesn't make you a great leader of the whole, in many cases it seems to be a detriment because they tend to revert back to what they are good at and comfortable with, which detracts for the overall leadership. I continue to go back to the NFL where really good OC/DC people often suck when they get the HC seat. I would rather have a great X and O guy that has run a team that brings in a really, really good recruiter. Just my opinion.

Hiring a guy like Hodgson to be head coach would certainly come with some risks but it would be worthwhile in my opinion.

If he flops and can't handle the job, you can easily move on after three seasons and start over. From my past experience covering other mid-major programs, the ones that had the highest upside were schools that specifically targeted high level recruiters.

It's probably the riskiest path because you need to surround yourself with a skilled staff to make up for your shortcomings. I think UB still has enough to offer as a mid-major to allow him to recruit at a high level.

He would certainly be more limited recruiting as a head coach but I still think his skillset would still come in handy. He was bringing in high 3-star, borderline 4-star guys to UB and 5-star, All Americans to Alabama. That's absolutely unreal recruiting ability.

The issue with X & O's guys is that they need talent to develop and coach up. The MAC is a very top heavy with Akron, Kent, Toledo and Ohio. You need 3-star guys to compete with them. If you can't keep up with them recruiting wise, you're toast. If you do out-recruit them, you can win in spite of being a below average X & O guy if you have other talented coaches on your staff.

So to wrap up, it's definitely a risk. Hodgson could go 24-8 or 8-24 depending on how things come together if he were to get the job. An X & O guy might consistently go 18-12. You could be solid every year but never good enough to go dancing.

Essentially, I'm saying to take to risk to go after the highest ceiling rather than settle for a safe hire. The other candidates mentioned are certainly good options as well.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Big 4 Hoops Blogger

[rma]

3 hours ago, yussi1870 said:

No, we want coaches on their way up, not on their way down.

Our best women’s basketball coach and arguably best basketball coach was on the way down when we got her. Not saying that always works out though. 

2 hours ago, Big 4 Hoops Blogger said:

My apologies. Obviously, we understand why Bona and UB have vastly different budgets.

Bona is able to save money by not paying credit card merchant fees by only accepting cash at concession stands. 

[yussi1870]

2 hours ago, trueblue32 said:

Eh it’s a fun tag line but they were also at one point coaches on their way up. It’s a cycle but one has a track record of already doing it. I’m not against either but completely ruling someone out for a MAC job for not meeting high major standards is pretty silly. I listed like 5 coaches who followed this path and run a top 100 mid-major. I forgot Ritchie McKay at Liberty, there may be others. It seems like a pretty high hit rate if you have the resources to get one. I think people saw one top 25 season and believe we’re destined for that every year when we don’t have the facilities or resources to do that. Being a consistent top 100 program is not a small accomplishment at the mid-major level.

Thinking specifically about Mike Anderson it applies. He would be a huge mistake. Fired twice and now he makes sense for us? He’s older and is sitting on a $5M parachute from SJU. He comes in and none of us should be surprised when our team is as bad as the schools he just came from. 

[trueblue32]

40 minutes ago, yussi1870 said:

He comes in and none of us should be surprised when our team is as bad as the schools he just came from. 

I'd hate for us to bottom out with an 88th rated team (per kenpom) after unexpectedly losing our star player to the pros two years early (Champagnie was a 0 star recruit). That'd be terrible for UB. Or when he bottomed out at 54th at Arkansas with 2 future NBA players still on the roster he left (Mason Jones was a 0 star recruit out of JUCO). Mike Anderson is a good coach.

Edited March 12, 2023 by trueblue32

[Tee4three]

19 minutes ago, trueblue32 said:

I'd hate for us to bottom out with an 88th rated team (per kenpom) after unexpectedly losing our star player to the pros two years early (Champagnie was a 0 star recruit). That'd be terrible for UB. Or when he bottomed out at 54th at Arkansas with 2 future NBA players still on the roster he left (Mason Jones was a 0 star recruit out of JUCO). Mike Anderson is a good coach.

There are reasons to dis like or not prefer a potential mike Anderson hire, him being a bad basketball coach isn't one of them 

[Jeseph]

Hey hey they did it. I think I might be ready to come back.

Maybe.

In the short term I think we just let Becky Burke run both teams.

Go Bulls.

[yussi1870]

23 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

There are reasons to dis like or not prefer a potential mike Anderson hire, him being a bad basketball coach isn't one of them 

Yes, he is bad. Sorry but good coaches don’t get fired twice for poor performance. He will be a disaster for us.

[961819]

Might be time for me to make my return

[1975]

14 hours ago, UBlearns said:

In all honesty, I just got my annual letter asking me to re-up my donations to the university.   It's been sitting on my desk, I hadn't written the check yet.  

With the university showing today that they're willing to invest in their athletics programs and not settle for middling performances on the court, I'll be donating more than usual this year.  The School of Management and Honors Program will be getting a little bonus this year as a result of this one.  

How do you know how much they are willing to invest toward the basketball program? 

[UBlearns]

2 hours ago, 1975 said:

How do you know how much they are willing to invest toward the basketball program? 

I don't, I'm assuming they're spending money on a salary buyout....money that I never thought they'd spend.

[promotherobot]

4 hours ago, 1975 said:

How do you know how much they are willing to invest toward the basketball program? 

 

1 hour ago, UBlearns said:

I don't, I'm assuming they're spending money on a salary buyout....money that I never thought they'd spend.

 

We all know the drill. If UB wants to roll with the big boys we need donors. BIG MONEY DONORS that will improve facilities and attract top coaching talent. Being a SUNY school makes it doubly hard. Football might be a tough sell in WNY with the Bills, but I think basketball is wide open.

[Jeseph]

29 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

 

 

We all know the drill. If UB wants to roll with the big boys we need donors. BIG MONEY DONORS that will improve facilities and attract top coaching talent. Being a SUNY school makes it doubly hard. Football might be a tough sell in WNY with the Bills, but I think basketball is wide open.

They started to show up for Oats but it wasn’t enough. It may not have worked but there’s hope. My worry is how much cache was lost over the past 4 seasons.

[promotherobot]

1 minute ago, Jeseph said:

They started to show up for Oats but it wasn’t enough. It may not have worked but there’s hope. My worry is how much cache was lost over the past 4 seasons.

Start winning again. They'll be back.

[BrooklynBull]

20 hours ago, squire17 said:

Think UB could get Pat Riley here to at least interview?

Is Utica too far away for him to be considered a local hire?

[UB Horns Up]

3 hours ago, promotherobot said:

 

 

We all know the drill. If UB wants to roll with the big boys we need donors. BIG MONEY DONORS that will improve facilities and attract top coaching talent. Being a SUNY school makes it doubly hard. Football might be a tough sell in WNY with the Bills, but I think basketball is wide open.

How do you figure that? This myth that UB Bulls basketball would have a easier time being big time in Buffalo than UB Bulls football? How is the Buffalo sports market place more wide open in the winter than the fall? Let’s put aside the other 3 Buffalo area basketball programs of Bonnies, Griffs and Purple Eagles which are a factor big time because there are two too many Division I basketball programs for a Buffalo area our population size to support. How are UB Bulls basketball outdrawing the Buffalo Sabres and the Buffalo Bandits? The Buffalo Bandits NLL lacrosse are averaging over 14,000 a game. 
The easier road is UB Bulls football along with the Buffalo Bills as a side by side football teams. The Buffalo Bills is a very expensive and going up season ticket to buy with PSL’s. The UB Bulls problem in football is that stadium. UB Bulls can win 100 College Football Playoff championships and they aren’t getting sellouts in that viewing dump that we call UB Stadium. I can see Canada easier from the UB Stadium tailgate lot than a UB Bulls football game at UB Stadium. Again I am not saying UB Bulls basketball couldn’t be big time but it is a heavy lift. UB Bulls basketball would have to be top 25 yearly and a final four contenders. UB would have to market Southern Ontario the Golden Horseshoe for more UB Bulls basketball fans then they have now attending UB Bulls basketball games. 

UB Stadium is a huge problem only made worse by a early 2000’s UB Stadium scoreboard that when it is sunny good luck trying to view it with the sun glare. Again UB Bulls basketball has a lot of warts there not in a major basketball power conference. Even if UB Bulls were able to talk there way into the Big East Conference with UB Bulls football Independent? UB Bulls basketball in the Big East Conference isn’t a slam dunk. Why? Well your dealing with all of the above. Plus the unknown. Like what? Well for starters the last two years the Buffalo Bisons IL baseball season has been extended to 150 games from 140 games going through September that take’s sports money potentially away from some place. Then the new Buffalo Bills stadium unknown what programming is going in there that take’s sports money away from somebody. Again when the Buffalo Sabres renovate Key Bank Center that will have more programming again to take away from someone entertainment wise. 
 

I am speaking from a realistic Buffalo fan perspective. Example I was once a season ticket holder of the Buffalo Blizzard indoor soccer, Buffalo Destroyers arena football, Buffalo Stampede and Buffalo Wings roller hockey the season tickets were $100 for season. How is $250 to $300 season seats plus $1,000 donations for UB Bulls Big East basketball competing with that potentially? With those niche minor professional teams there instant major league by the stadium presentation. What do you mean BSF. Anything in Buffalo Memorial Auditorium was big league. The Buffalo Stallions MISL indoor soccer in the late 1970’s early 1980’s was more big league than the UB Bulls basketball at there current UB North Campus setup UB Alumni Arena. I was a hardcore Buffalo Stallions fan as a kid they replaced another team I was hardcore fan of as a kid the Buffalo Braves NBA that moved to San Diego. I don’t have to hear from some UB alum we should hang onto Jim Whitesell for 20 years until Jim Whitesell figures out coaching or you can’t have fun because UB is afraid of liability. Again Buffalo fan doesn’t care about university New York State political nonsense liability they just want to tailgate and have a good time.
 

Again Terry Pegula could start a Buffalo XFL or USFL football team in the spring tomorrow and it affects UB Bulls basketball especially because there are a lot of games. Terry Pegula could say I bought a Buffalo USL soccer franchise for the new Buffalo Bills stadium in 2026 the Buffalo soccer team instantly hops over UB Bulls athletics basketball especially and as long as UB Bulls football doesn’t fix UB Stadium it affects UB Bulls football too. Soccer goes into September so there is that. UB Bulls football there are 6 games. UB Bulls football fix the stadium and you will consistently put 20,000 a game there. 

Again I am telling UB alums like it is trust me I am hardcore Buffalo sports fan I had season tickets with the Buffalo Wings RHI roller hockey with my Buffalo Wings jersey and hat I still have them going to then Marine Midland Arena now Key Bank Center back in 1997. We Buffalo will always have sports teams competition. If the Buffalo Bills left tomorrow a new Buffalo professional football team would replace them and be successful like the St Louis Battlehawks XFL is sold out today. I am not surprised about St Louis good for them the NFL owners are greedy fools. You think the owners and politicians make Buffalo a good sports market or the Buffalo sports fans? Again UB Bulls athletics could fold tomorrow hardcore UB Bulls fans like myself would say that is a shame it was fun while it lasted I had season tickets for 30 plus years in my opinion. UB Horns Up! Go Bulls! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Edited March 12, 2023 by UB Horns Up

[yussi1870]

2 hours ago, UB Horns Up said:

If the Buffalo Bills left tomorrow a new Buffalo professional football team would replace them and be successful like the St Louis Battlehawks XFL is sold out today. 

I like your take. I believe UB made the investment in higher level football (relative to the other SUNYs) as a bet that Bills would leave. With Bills staying I don’t see us increasing sports investment and it would begin with football if it were to happen at all.

[DooleyBull06]

What I don’t get and understand is why can’t the bulls exist with or despite or along with the bills? I’m a down stater and I don’t understand why it’s the bills and nothing else.  Makes no sense to me. This isn’t giants/jets or Mets/Yankees. From what it sounds like is that Buffalonians can only invest in one.

[John]

15 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

What I don’t get and understand is why can’t the bulls exist with or despite or along with the bills? I’m a down stater and I don’t understand why it’s the bills and nothing else.  Makes no sense to me. This isn’t giants/jets or Mets/Yankees. From what it sounds like is that Buffalonians can only invest in one.

There are many of us and we are in the vocal minority that have given up on the pro sports scene because of the cost to attend among other factors. We are not breaking tables and shouting from the rooftops and being interviewed but we are out there. We will continue to follow and support our teams and college sports in general in our WNY area. What the pro sports bigwigs and even media do not understand is there are thousands of people that are not making the money to spend how many sporting events and we have to choose and budget our money wisely. No criticism really of how anyone spends their money because many, many years ago our family spent a lot of our money on pro sports. One comment on media is an article awhile age from I believe it was Harrington of the News and he was complaining why fans were not going to Sabres games and he is another person who does not have a clue what how much people are making and what their discretionary income is and the cost of Sabres games cost. So much for the rant again on pro sports and what it costs to attend games. 

[Tee4three]

16 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

What I don’t get and understand is why can’t the bulls exist with or despite or along with the bills? I’m a down stater and I don’t understand why it’s the bills and nothing else.  Makes no sense to me. This isn’t giants/jets or Mets/Yankees. From what it sounds like is that Buffalonians can only invest in one.

A lot of the college football vs pro football in my opinion is the culture of bills football, you plan your entire weekend around a bills game. You get to the stadium at 8am. It's tough doing that let alone having 2 full days of it on a weekend. Then add in the cost it's not an easy thing to do. Even add in the weather being outside especially in the fall/winter months. If there ever is an opportunity to build a roof or dome for football they should do it. I think attendance would jump big time but that's not happening 

Basketball should and can run circles around the sabres though. You start winning basketball games again attendance will be there. Price for a game is great and the style they have been playing is enjoyable to watch 

[UB Horns Up]

2 hours ago, John said:

There are many of us and we are in the vocal minority that have given up on the pro sports scene because of the cost to attend among other factors. We are not breaking tables and shouting from the rooftops and being interviewed but we are out there. We will continue to follow and support our teams and college sports in general in our WNY area. What the pro sports bigwigs and even media do not understand is there are thousands of people that are not making the money to spend how many sporting events and we have to choose and budget our money wisely. No criticism really of how anyone spends their money because many, many years ago our family spent a lot of our money on pro sports. One comment on media is an article awhile age from I believe it was Harrington of the News and he was complaining why fans were not going to Sabres games and he is another person who does not have a clue what how much people are making and what their discretionary income is and the cost of Sabres games cost. So much for the rant again on pro sports and what it costs to attend games. 

The sad thing is Bryan Hodgson should be the new UB Bulls basketball coach but you will get a few UB Donors not from Western New York that whole life is the words of the New York Times propaganda machine that will screw it up for the other UB Donors and UB Bulls fans will be stuck with another Jim Whitesell type of coach again that checks all the political cover boxes for UB because they fear the corrupt New York Times propaganda machine what a joke that is why UB athletics will never be big time nor will Western New York unfortunately the ship sailed long ago which is unfortunate. We are going to spend $500,000 to get rid of Jim Whitesell not to hire the best assistant coach candidate Bryan Hodgson from number one seeded Alabama. I want Bryan Hodgson from the Bobby Hurley and Nate Oats coaching tree. 
 

I was reading a Buffalo Courier Express article achieved over the weekend from there sports section that was interesting how our college sport of basketball today locally could have been very different and the path not taken. Blame my school Canisius College and St Bonaventure University for not doing this which would have been major today if Canisius and St Bonaventure weren’t so greedy and selfish back in 1971. Back in 1971 Buffalo State Bengals athletic director was trying to get Buffalo State to Division I basketball with the other three Little Three basketball schools when Buffalo State Bengals had a powerhouse basketball team with Randy Smith the former NBA All Star Guard of the Buffalo Braves was trying to form a Upstate 8 basketball team conference with a Big Five not Philadelphia Big Five a Buffalo Big Five basketball schools. The Buffalo Big Five schools would have been St Bonaventure, Canisius, Niagara, UB and Buffalo State and finding 3 other nearby schools for a Eight school Upstate conference in 1972. Here is the best part the Upstate Conference would have sent it’s winning school to the NCAA automatic bid to the NCAA Basketball tournament. You only need 8 schools back then so you had the PAC-8 and the Big-8 as examples. So think about that UB which wasn’t in power position of the Little Three basketball schools and Buffalo State would have went from college division to university division which in those days was just a formality. We all would have played conference games together so no MAAC, MAC and Atlantic 10 Conference. Niagara Purple Eagles coach Frank Layton who was one of the smartest people in the room no wonder he went on to greater heights in the NBA as a coach with the Utah Jazz said yes Niagara would be interested what the Buffalo State athletic director was trying to form.

The Buffalo Courier Express was for a new Upstate Conference. St Bonaventure was strongly opposed and said they don’t even need the Buffalo Memorial Auditorium with there University Center opened in those days which is today Reilly Center. Canisius College wasn’t interested they were holding onto 1950’s and early 1960’s basketball day memories with the Buffalo Memorial Auditorium and were getting ready to try to go national powerhouse again one last time by cutting corners and they land on probation 5 years later with Larry Fogle and Charley Jordan.  But talk about how screwed up Buffalo Western New York was and still is could you imagine a Upstate Conference with 5 Buffalo area schools with a 5 in 8 school chance a Buffalo area school would be in NCAA basketball tournament yearly? That is huge we Buffalo were incompetent run by complete fools that ran Buffalo and Western New York everything not just sports but everything into the ground.
 

I don’t think there is any coming back from all this stuff our Western New York economic ship sailed a long time ago. 1970 to 1979 a lot of major mistakes sports wise cost Buffalo dearly to this day financially. 1969 Buffalo lost on NL baseball expansion than they don’t build the dome in Lancaster cost us the Washington Senators who end up in Texas as the Texas Rangers. From my understanding when Buffalo lost the NL baseball expansion to San Diego and Montreal by one vote. MLB baseball verbally promised working Buffalo Baseball Group at the time Buffalo the Washington Senators who were struggling but with a catch they needed to get that Lancaster Buffalo Dome built. Erie County back out the Lancaster Buffalo dome doesn’t get built bye, bye MLB for Buffalo and the Buffalo Bisons IL baseball a Montreal Expos affiliate move to Winnipeg in 1970 becoming the Winnipeg Whips. I had no Buffalo Bisons baseball until I was 11 years old because of those poor decisions. I would have seen Gary Carter, Andre Dawson and Tim Raines as Buffalo Bisons IL Montreal Expos affiliate in the 1970’s to 1980’s. January 1971 UB Bulls drop’s football with signed future contracts with Syracuse Orange in 1975 and 1976 so College Football was stolen from my childhood thanks Western New York elites for your reckless behavior. The College Basketball stuff, the Buffalo Braves moving to become the San Diego Clippers now Los Angeles Clippers the Buffalo elites are too shortsighted and cheap there not smart enough to keep the Buffalo Braves season ticket numbers at above 5,000 so John Y. Brown couldn’t break the Buffalo Memorial Auditorium lease with tickets $6 and $9 dollars for the Buffalo Braves NBA basketball too much of a heavy lift. Thank you Western New York elites you are doing a outstanding job of running Western New York into the ground. The shortsightedness never ends in Western New York there is no hope for this very screwed up community the leaders in position power in Western New York are corrupt to the core and incompetent business people that is why we are what we are today as a community. 
 

Again it’s not the Buffalo fans it’s the people making the decisions economically in elite power positions that are incompetent fools why Buffalo, Western New York and UB is the way it is. The Buffalo Courier Express Upstate Conference article was by Cy Kritzer who went to Buffalo Bisons games for years after he retired from the newspaper business a good smart man more on the economic ball than our elite leaders at this time that is the problem not the Buffalo fans. So UB alums believing former UB AD “Mr. Wonderful“ Danny White was going to take New York Bulls big time with UB he wasn’t changing any of that nonsense. Better smarter people than Mr Wonderful have tried the ship has sailed away by Lake Erie the party is over for UB big time anything they will most likely screwup the UB Bulls basketball hire. Buffalo is in decline of take what you can get today be happy even if it’s shortsighted just build the new Buffalo Bills stadium in Orchard Park who cares how shortsighted of a decision that is long term just do it to get it over with so our elites can profit in my opinion. UB Horns Up! Go Bulls! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Edited March 13, 2023 by UB Horns Up