Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[Ubbulls84]

I agree with lot of the posts here. This is completely unacceptable the performance this year and Whitesell is completely killing the momentum we built this last 5 years. This team is underachieving to a whole new level. Graves I hate to say it but is having a terrible year, he looks completely lost, is a turnover machine, can’t hit a shot, not a good defender and just looks like he honestly doesn’t want to even play. We have zero depth. Let’s be honest with ourselves a lot of busts on the recruiting trail here: Nickleberry, Hardnett, Skogman, and the 2 kids who they recruited this past year. Haven’t seen much from Brewton yet, but I have some hope for him. Even with that I think we have the talent to win the conference with core of Mballa, Jeenathan and Segu. Problem is you have to win 3 games in a row come tournament time I don’t see that happening w this group they don’t have the fire that Oats forced the players to have to want to win..

[BrooklynBull]

5 hours ago, 961819 said:

I’m going to stop you right there. I truly hope people read this and don’t selectively pick and choose lines from it to have opinions on. Also, admins- please do not alter this comment as it has no profanity and this is a discussion board for fans of the program to discuss the program. This will be a lengthy response. Also, dutchcountry, I’m not sure if you’re well-studied, making pure assumptions, or if you yourself are a staff member of one of the athletic programs but you listed some info in your responses that for us fans would be ....very hard info to come across through research. 
 

I went to Stony Brook at the beginning of my collegiate career. They are located in Long Island. If you are unaware, their proximity to New York City and its surplus of professional teams means that their (SBU’s) sports are supported less than local high school teams are. Their student sections are non-existent at games and the only game where there was a respectable sized one was homecoming... and even then, that was only because local fighter Chris Algieri was making an appearance at the game ahead of his fight with the legendary Manny Pacquiao. The best part? All of the students left at halftime. The school’s students have zero interest in their sports programs.
 

Stony Brook had a very nice run recently with their men’s basketball program. The result of which was them losing their coach through a PROMOTION to.....Ohio of the “prestigious” MAC conference. Nobody at SBU cared, and it got zero publicity. When they were at their peak, the arena didn’t sell out games and there were barely any students. (Source: my own two eyes).

 The UB men’s basketball program is coming off of the best season in its entire history, right after having its best season the season before that. They one-upped their best season ever with an even better one. That combination of seasons not only launched UB into the national spotlight, it led to its greatest coach ever being poached by Alabama. A move that, as a fan, I hated and felt like I got punched in the gut but simultaneously a promotion that he absolutely deserved. It shows with his current performance at Alabama. In addition to it making us one of the more relevant non-P5 programs, comparable to the SDSUs, BYUs, etc- it also showed the country and this fan base what this school is capable of. Nate Oats brought this program to heights that we could’ve only ever dreamed of. There were serious discussions about how the arena may have needed to be expanded if success like that continued. Coaching makes or breaks a team completely. Coach Calipari of Kentucky does not win National Titles despite having NBA farm team rosters every year. This is because he is a good recruiter and businessman but not a great coach. Nate Oats is both an excellent recruiter and fantastic coach. What did this school do to replace the loss of the best coach this school has ever had? They promoted from within. A move that in the past worked because the coach that got promoted was a legendary high school coach with a history of winning at the highest level. However the promotion from within wasn’t their young, star-in-the-making assistant coach Jamie Quarles. They hired a fantastic assistant coach with a lackluster history as a head coach. 
 

My point with this response is to point out that we have seen what this school is capable of athletically speaking. It’s fantastic and exciting. We have the size of the other flagship athletic schools in the country and have shown flashes of pure athletic potential. That momentum, which is CRUCIAL for a mid major program, is now dead. We have an athletic director that was fortunate enough to come in to a school that had 3 fantastic coaches already in place. (Leipold, Jack, and Oats) When it was time for him to do his job and continue the success, he did not execute. Keeping the roster together would have been a smart move if we weren’t graduating one of the most amazing senior classes in college basketball history. The fans on this board are frustrated. They have every right to be. I know life-long fans that in previous seasons would have donated a kidney to attend these games with the level they were playing at. These same fans sat through the Reggie era and continued to be die hard fans. Now they don’t want to pay the money to have a cut out picture of themself in the arena because they’re disheartened and upset with the direction the program has gone in. That is huge. 
 

We can list Kenpom ratings until our hands fall off but the reality of that is we got absolutely embarrassed by a team that was ranked worse than us by those same ratings. Our players are not executing, they don’t have energy, they play without structure and without discipline and that comes directly from the coach.

Absolutely dead on about Stony Brook.  There is also almost no interest in college athletics in the New York City area.  Few mentions about Army and Rutgers football.  As for hoops, few mentions beyond occasional St. John's, Seton Hall and Rutgers.

With nine local professional teams there is little space for air time or print for college athletics.

[dutchcountry7]

9 hours ago, 961819 said:

I’m going to stop you right there. I truly hope people read this and don’t selectively pick and choose lines from it to have opinions on. Also, admins- please do not alter this comment as it has no profanity and this is a discussion board for fans of the program to discuss the program. This will be a lengthy response. Also, dutchcountry, I’m not sure if you’re well-studied, making pure assumptions, or if you yourself are a staff member of one of the athletic programs but you listed some info in your responses that for us fans would be ....very hard info to come across through research. 
 

I went to Stony Brook at the beginning of my collegiate career. They are located in Long Island. If you are unaware, their proximity to New York City and its surplus of professional teams means that their (SBU’s) sports are supported less than local high school teams are. Their student sections are non-existent at games and the only game where there was a respectable sized one was homecoming... and even then, that was only because local fighter Chris Algieri was making an appearance at the game ahead of his fight with the legendary Manny Pacquiao. The best part? All of the students left at halftime. The school’s students have zero interest in their sports programs.
 

Stony Brook had a very nice run recently with their men’s basketball program. The result of which was them losing their coach through a PROMOTION to.....Ohio of the “prestigious” MAC conference. Nobody at SBU cared, and it got zero publicity. When they were at their peak, the arena didn’t sell out games and there were barely any students. (Source: my own two eyes).

 The UB men’s basketball program is coming off of the best season in its entire history, right after having its best season the season before that. They one-upped their best season ever with an even better one. That combination of seasons not only launched UB into the national spotlight, it led to its greatest coach ever being poached by Alabama. A move that, as a fan, I hated and felt like I got punched in the gut but simultaneously a promotion that he absolutely deserved. It shows with his current performance at Alabama. In addition to it making us one of the more relevant non-P5 programs, comparable to the SDSUs, BYUs, etc- it also showed the country and this fan base what this school is capable of. Nate Oats brought this program to heights that we could’ve only ever dreamed of. There were serious discussions about how the arena may have needed to be expanded if success like that continued. Coaching makes or breaks a team completely. Coach Calipari of Kentucky does not win National Titles despite having NBA farm team rosters every year. This is because he is a good recruiter and businessman but not a great coach. Nate Oats is both an excellent recruiter and fantastic coach. What did this school do to replace the loss of the best coach this school has ever had? They promoted from within. A move that in the past worked because the coach that got promoted was a legendary high school coach with a history of winning at the highest level. However the promotion from within wasn’t their young, star-in-the-making assistant coach Jamie Quarles. They hired a fantastic assistant coach with a lackluster history as a head coach. 
 

My point with this response is to point out that we have seen what this school is capable of athletically speaking. It’s fantastic and exciting. We have the size of the other flagship athletic schools in the country and have shown flashes of pure athletic potential. That momentum, which is CRUCIAL for a mid major program, is now dead. We have an athletic director that was fortunate enough to come in to a school that had 3 fantastic coaches already in place. (Leipold, Jack, and Oats) When it was time for him to do his job and continue the success, he did not execute. Keeping the roster together would have been a smart move if we weren’t graduating one of the most amazing senior classes in college basketball history. The fans on this board are frustrated. They have every right to be. I know life-long fans that in previous seasons would have donated a kidney to attend these games with the level they were playing at. These same fans sat through the Reggie era and continued to be die hard fans. Now they don’t want to pay the money to have a cut out picture of themself in the arena because they’re disheartened and upset with the direction the program has gone in. That is huge. 
 

We can list Kenpom ratings until our hands fall off but the reality of that is we got absolutely embarrassed by a team that was ranked worse than us by those same ratings. Our players are not executing, they don’t have energy, they play without structure and without discipline and that comes directly from the coach.

 

I will run over some points you made...

Location.  This is a selling point for Stony Brook.  They are near their most successful alumni base.  Teams from all over the country want to go to the NYC metro area to play games.  While playing in Long Island is likely not a big draw right now, it would be acceptable with a better brand.  They can draw teams to NYC.  They are a logical regional rival for UConn and Rutgers.  Being on Long Island is an advantage they have.  you speak about being a pro sports town but that is no different than Buffalo.  Buffalo has nothing to sell visiting teams on so they won't come to Buffalo for a game.  But go to NYC--no matter where the school is from--and they will be playing in front of alumni from that school.  NYC is home to alumni from everywhere.  Buffalo is not.

You speak of support for the program but by SBU's own admission they have only recently started to put work into their athletic programs.  They are absolutely further ahead than when we made the jump to FBS.  Their facilities, their fundraising, their student, community, and alumni support are ahead of where we were when we made the jump and they have a better path forward.  Yes, Buffalo is currently better than SBU.  That isn't the question.  They could make the jump to FBS though and they would see a boost from it. They have the tools to do it already.  That's the point.  They are no more or no less a B1G school than Buffalo.  A claim that is simply rhetoric since being a B1G school simply means being a member of the Big Ten Conference.  Some people around here seem to think Northwestern isn't a B1G school since they aren't a public school.  Which is honestly an absurd metric.  The only reason people want to emphasize the public feature is because they think it will ensure a built in fan base.

You talk about SBU's basketball success and how "your own two eyes" didn't see their fans turn out in their most successful season.  That is funny to me because 2016 was their big year.  So are you saying that you went to a regular season game in the only year they made the NCAA tournament and didn't see a lot of fans turn out?  You realize in 2016 we both made the big dance.  They finished the year #98 in KenPom and we finished #138--both of us got in by winning the conference tournament. They averaged 3,400 a game that year while we averaged 3,200 fans a game.

This is their support from one of their home games that season.  I guess it wasn't the game you "saw with your own two eyes" which is reasonable since not all the games were like that, just as not all our games are well attended.

 

Stony Brook is NOT where Buffalo is today and they would like to become Buffalo as far as athletic accomplishments are concerned.  But they are further along than Buffalo was when Buffalo made the leap to FBS.  And SBU has more advantages built in that would allow them to succeed if they made the jump.

Now back to talking about UB basketball...

You're upset about a loss and want to have the Top-25 team back.  Who doesn't?

But that doesn't mean that we should be talking about a coaching change.  First, people here act like it is easy to hire a good coach.  Every hire includes significant risk.  So you make the move when it is worth it.

We have to give the program time.  It is easy to be impatient and want a fresh start now but every fresh start is going to include volatility that resets the clock on the program being built.  The program is NOT in free fall as some make it out to be.  The metrics tell us that the program is stable, even if you're not happy.  

I get people long for the success of Oats' teams and that is understandable.  But he is gone for a reason.  He is lightyears better than a coach Buffalo can get.  He was a stop on the way up and finding many of those in sequence is hard to do.  But even he wasn't immune the loss we are talking about.  People seem to forget how his top-25 team lost to (#136) Northern Illinois and (#105) Bowling Green in the greatest season in Buffalo history.  But now people want to claim the sky is falling because our team losses to (#114) Kent State?

Give the program time.  We will have a better picture of the program in a year or two.  The program is in good shape.  Yes, we all want more out of it.  But the program is still one of the strongest mid-major programs in the country and still a top team in the MAC which is the goal to maintain.

 

[961819]

3 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

 

I will run over some points you made...

Location.  This is a selling point for Stony Brook.  They are near their most successful alumni base.  Teams from all over the country want to go to the NYC metro area to play games.  While playing in Long Island is likely not a big draw right now, it would be acceptable with a better brand.  They can draw teams to NYC.  They are a logical regional rival for UConn and Rutgers.  Being on Long Island is an advantage they have.  you speak about being a pro sports town but that is no different than Buffalo.  Buffalo has nothing to sell visiting teams on so they won't come to Buffalo for a game.  But go to NYC--no matter where the school is from--and they will be playing in front of alumni from that school.  NYC is home to alumni from everywhere.  Buffalo is not.

You speak of support for the program but by SBU's own admission they have only recently started to put work into their athletic programs.  They are absolutely further ahead than when we made the jump to FBS.  Their facilities, their fundraising, their student, community, and alumni support are ahead of where we were when we made the jump and they have a better path forward.  Yes, Buffalo is currently better than SBU.  That isn't the question.  They could make the jump to FBS though and they would see a boost from it. They have the tools to do it already.  That's the point.  They are no more or no less a B1G school than Buffalo.  A claim that is simply rhetoric since being a B1G school simply means being a member of the Big Ten Conference.  Some people around here seem to think Northwestern isn't a B1G school since they aren't a public school.  Which is honestly an absurd metric.  The only reason people want to emphasize the public feature is because they think it will ensure a built in fan base.

You talk about SBU's basketball success and how "your own two eyes" didn't see their fans turn out in their most successful season.  That is funny to me because 2016 was their big year.  So are you saying that you went to a regular season game in the only year they made the NCAA tournament and didn't see a lot of fans turn out?  You realize in 2016 we both made the big dance.  They finished the year #98 in KenPom and we finished #138--both of us got in by winning the conference tournament. They averaged 3,400 a game that year while we averaged 3,200 fans a game.

This is their support from one of their home games that season.  I guess it wasn't the game you "saw with your own two eyes" which is reasonable since not all the games were like that, just as not all our games are well attended.

 

Stony Brook is NOT where Buffalo is today and they would like to become Buffalo as far as athletic accomplishments are concerned.  But they are further along than Buffalo was when Buffalo made the leap to FBS.  And SBU has more advantages built in that would allow them to succeed if they made the jump.

Now back to talking about UB basketball...

You're upset about a loss and want to have the Top-25 team back.  Who doesn't?

But that doesn't mean that we should be talking about a coaching change.  First, people here act like it is easy to hire a good coach.  Every hire includes significant risk.  So you make the move when it is worth it.

We have to give the program time.  It is easy to be impatient and want a fresh start now but every fresh start is going to include volatility that resets the clock on the program being built.  The program is NOT in free fall as some make it out to be.  The metrics tell us that the program is stable, even if you're not happy.  

I get people long for the success of Oats' teams and that is understandable.  But he is gone for a reason.  He is lightyears better than a coach Buffalo can get.  He was a stop on the way up and finding many of those in sequence is hard to do.  But even he wasn't immune the loss we are talking about.  People seem to forget how his top-25 team lost to (#136) Northern Illinois and (#105) Bowling Green in the greatest season in Buffalo history.  But now people want to claim the sky is falling because our team losses to (#114) Kent State?

Give the program time.  We will have a better picture of the program in a year or two.  The program is in good shape.  Yes, we all want more out of it.  But the program is still one of the strongest mid-major programs in the country and still a top team in the MAC which is the goal to maintain.

 

I’m gonna let you in on a funny secret, well over half of that crowd left that game at halftime. Source: I was literally there. They may not have made the big dance after 2016 but they were still good and their coach was hired away as proof of that. Compare it to when UB was at their peak. Arena sold out every game, standing room only and well over doubled the attendance of SBU in their best year. You comparing UB to SBU is laughable and I wouldn’t be surprised if you never set foot on that campus. It’s completely a commuter school and is depressing. They are halfway out on Long Island so, no, they don’t have the NYC metro area draw. They’re in a quiet little Long Island town. I speak from experience and eyewitness to this, you speak from numbers. Those are not the same and don’t ever compare UB to SBU

[UB05]

1 hour ago, Erie County said:

They've lost more this year than Kent State, and you know it. Including the first sweep by BG since 2010. The've lost more already in the first 10 games than that team did in 35 games, so that's a loaded comparison. 

What classifies it as one of the best CURRENT mid-major programs in the country in 20-21? Also, we are teetering on that brink if we start to miss NCAA tournaments again. The majority of us in here want to change to start the process now. Not when the inevitable change happens in 2 more years. 

We certainly know that change doesn't come with a worse recruiting effort than 19-21. 

It must suck to wallow in negativity and actively fight to prove that things are bad 

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, 961819 said:

I’m gonna let you in on a funny secret, well over half of that crowd left that game at halftime. 

You're telling me that the game I linked to which posted video of the packed out arena as time expired with fans rushing the court was half empty at half time?

Is that because people went to the concession stand before they came back to watch the second half of the game?

There is literally video I posted that shows you're talking nonsense.  But hey, if you want to talk about all the games you go to at SBU, that kind of proves my point.  Even UB fans go to SBU games, then it must be a sleep giant.  They can even get you to games and your contention is that there is no reason anyone would watch SBU games.  You're the hardest critic to win over and they already won you over.  

[121Merrimac]

1 hour ago, Erie County said:

... the first sweep by BG since 2010. ...

BG has been trending up the past several years.  Possibly related to the Stroh Center, which opened in '11.

[dutchcountry7]

1 hour ago, Erie County said:

They've lost more this year than Kent State, and you know it. Including the first sweep by BG since 2010. The've lost more already in the first 10 games than that team did in 35 games, so that's a loaded comparison. 

What classifies it as one of the best CURRENT mid-major programs in the country in 20-21? Also, we are teetering on that brink if we start to miss NCAA tournaments again. The majority of us in here want to change to start the process now. Not when the inevitable change happens in 2 more years. 

We certainly know that change doesn't come with a worse recruiting effort than 19-21. 

Wow, I hadn't realize the team was swept by Bowling Green for the first time in 10 years.  You're right.  Comparing the performance against (#125) Bowling Green this year and  (#249) Bowling Green in 2017 is a great metric.  Teams are always at the same level every year.

We are not "teetering on the brink" if the team misses the NCAA tournament.  Seriously, get of the ledge.  

There are over 280 non P5+BE schools in D1.  As they currently stand the team is in the top-50 of those.  That is with all the doom and gloom people are talking about here.  

This is that list of top-50 CURRENT mid-majors.

1	Gonzaga	WCC
2	Houston	Amer
3	Loyola Chicago	MVC
4	Saint Louis	A10
5	San Diego St.	MWC
6	Utah St.	MWC
7	Richmond	A10
8	BYU	WCC
9	Boise St.	MWC
10	St. Bonaventure	A10
11	SMU	Amer
12	Drake	MVC
13	Davidson	A10
14	Rhode Island	A10
15	VCU	A10
16	Toledo	MAC
17	Wichita St.	Amer
18	Memphis	Amer
19	Dayton	A10
20	Cincinnati	Amer
21	San Francisco	WCC
22	Saint Mary's	WCC
23	Furman	SC
24	Colorado St.	MWC
25	Wright St.	Horz
26	Marshall	CUSA
27	Tulsa	Amer
28	Western Kentucky	CUSA
29	North Texas	CUSA
30	UAB	CUSA
31	UCF	Amer
32	South Dakota St.	Sum
33	Belmont	OVC
34	South Florida	Amer
35	Liberty	ASun
36	Yale	Ivy
37	Vermont	AE
38	Massachusetts	A10
39	Winthrop	BSth
40	Colgate	Pat
41	Georgia St.	SB
42	Louisiana Tech	CUSA
43	Nevada	MWC
44	Buffalo	MAC
45	Duquesne	A10
46	Kent St.	MAC
47	UC Santa Barbara	BW
48	Pacific	WCC
49	Bradley	MVC
50	New Mexico St.	WAC

 

Seriously, your dooms day scenario where the sky is falling and drastic measures need to be taken is being on par with the likes of New Mexico State, Nevada, and Georgia State? 

Programs will have fluctuations.  And the program is still performing at a respectable level.  Just not where we want it to be.

No sure what your "lost more this year than 35 games" is all about.  If you're talking about the last year Oats coached then what's your point?  Do you want me to tell you that Oats is a better coach?  Okay.  Be prepared to be shocked.  Oats is a better coach.  You want to hire him to come back and replace Whitesell?  Be my guest.    

But if you're talking about going out making a change and brining in a coach that UB can land... then who are you talking about?  

The problem here is you're just shouting "we need a change!" and yeah, the change needs to be more wins.  But that doesn't mean you make a change that includes changing up the whole program.  Coaching changes are traumatic for a program.  They are major changes.  You act like firing a coach is a panacea.  

But what really happens?  You fire a coach and look for a new one with no guarantee you will hire a coach that performs better.  You hope that your budget allows you to hire a coach that is on the rise or a proven winner while competing with other programs that are desperate for a change too. 

You actually have a higher likelihood of taking a step back because you lose the team identify that is created which leads to players transferring.  It is far from a guarantee.  This is a path many programs have gone down and a lot have found stability and success in years three, four, and five.  But if your reaction is to fire the staff and make a change anytime the team isn't performing as you want them to then you will never get the momentum you need to actually build a successful program.

 

[dutchcountry7]

2 hours ago, 961819 said:

They may not have made the big dance after 2016 but they were still good and their coach was hired away as proof of that. 

Okay, so this line struck me since I thought I must have been misremember if what you said were true.

But nope...

Stony Brook was #217 the next season (2017) and #223 the season after that (2018).  The team plummeted in a rebuild.  As is often the case when a coach is hired away.  We didn't have that because Whitesell brought stability to the program.

Stony Brook hasn't been good.  They have been bad with a few good years.  And on those rare occasions when they have been good, the fans have turned out.    

[961819]

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

You're telling me that the game I linked to which posted video of the packed out arena as time expired with fans rushing the court was half empty at half time?

Is that because people went to the concession stand before they came back to watch the second half of the game?

There is literally video I posted that shows you're talking nonsense.  But hey, if you want to talk about all the games you go to at SBU, that kind of proves my point.  Even UB fans go to SBU games, then it must be a sleep giant.  They can even get you to games and your contention is that there is no reason anyone would watch SBU games.  You're the hardest critic to win over and they already won you over.  

You clearly can’t read very well. I WENT to SBU which is the only reason I would attend one of their games. That also was nowhere near the full capacity of that arena. I’m also in that video 

[961819]

27 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Okay, so this line struck me since I thought I must have been misremember if what you said were true.

But nope...

Stony Brook was #217 the next season (2017) and #223 the season after that (2018).  The team plummeted in a rebuild.  As is often the case when a coach is hired away.  We didn't have that because Whitesell brought stability to the program.

Stony Brook hasn't been good.  They have been bad with a few good years.  And on those rare occasions when they have been good, the fans have turned out.    

Jesus Christ you love numbers dude who the hell cares? We just lost to a team that was ranked worse than us the rankings don’t mean anything 

[UB05]

43 minutes ago, 961819 said:

Jesus Christ you love numbers dude who the hell cares? We just lost to a team that was ranked worse than us the rankings don’t mean anything 

Rankings don’t mean anything?

[121Merrimac]

21 minutes ago, UB05 said:

Rankings don’t mean anything?

I took it to mean, rankings are less important than actual win/lose records.  Like, how is Miami ahead of Bowling Green in the second half right now?   

[mikescherrer8]

Hey good news, Buffalo won today. So, there’s still hope! 

[DocCas86]

 I thought I would share some raw numbers comparing Oats and Whitesell through 25 MAC conference games:

On surface - I would say maybe the board is being a little harsh on Whitesell.  I know Oats won MAC championship in first year, but the MAC was weaker that year based on several ranking sites.  The lack of consistency in games and inability to close out in the losses is a concern, but I choose to remain positive for rest of this season.  I do agree with those who have concern for future post- Williams, Segu and Mballa, as there is a lot to replace and a lot of questions marks with what is currently on team - we will have to see what we come up with remaining scholarships.

 

[dutchcountry7]

4 hours ago, 961819 said:

You clearly can’t read very well. I WENT to SBU which is the only reason I would attend one of their games. That also was nowhere near the full capacity of that arena. I’m also in that video 

We can see in the video the game was standing room only.  We can see in the video the place was packed as time expired (and well after the game ended).

Stony Brook said it was a sell out.  https://stonybrookathletics.com/news/2016/3/12/Seawolves_punch_ticket_to_NCAA_tournament_with_80_74_win_over_Vermont.aspx

What is your deal?   You have a real issue and are pushing disinformation here.  People can watch the video and clearly see that you're wrong.

[dutchcountry7]

4 hours ago, 961819 said:

Jesus Christ you love numbers dude who the hell cares? We just lost to a team that was ranked worse than us the rankings don’t mean anything 

Why do we care about the performance of our college basketball team?  Why do we care how the program has performed in a thread where people are calling for a drastic change and a coach to be fired?

Seriously, it is pretty clear you have an agenda here and like to push disinformation.  

Yes, I love impartial third parties taking an objected look at things so that I can minimize my own biases.  You clearly not only prefer your biases but believe that you have all the answers.

It's behavior like yours that makes fan bases unbearable. 

[clodney]

Honest question, how the hell are we #111 in Kenpom? We are .500 with our best win coming against #145 Ball State. 4 of our 5 losses came to teams ranked well below us included a loss to #189 Army. Is that 1 close loss against Syracuse the only thing carrying us or are these rankings skewed by prior seasons? I'm not sure the methodology they use but something seems wrong when we're 1 spot above a Texas A&M team that has wins over 2 top100 teams (beat #67 Auburn and #76 Miss St).

[DocCas86]

22 minutes ago, clodney said:

Honest question, how the hell are we #111 in Kenpom? We are .500 with our best win coming against #145 Ball State. 4 of our 5 losses came to teams ranked well below us included a loss to #189 Army. Is that 1 close loss against Syracuse the only thing carrying us or are these rankings skewed by prior seasons? I'm not sure the methodology they use but something seems wrong when we're 1 spot above a Texas A&M team that has wins over 2 top100 teams (beat #67 Auburn and #76 Miss St).

The rankings are clearly not an exact science.  I would add with fewer OOC games this year, there is more uncertainty comparing one conference to another.  I think games such as our overtime loss to Syracuse, Toledo's close losses to Xavier and Bradley and Kent overtime loss to Virginia have helped MAC overall.  Our margin of victory in our four MAC victories has helped our relative ranking in the MAC as well.   Kent is not ranked well below us...and BG is being hurt by two blowout losses to Ball St and MOH, but they are likely not as bad as their ranking.  I don't know all the details of the ranking, but those are some facts that likely influence the rankings.

[dutchcountry7]

33 minutes ago, clodney said:

Honest question, how the hell are we #111 in Kenpom? We are .500 with our best win coming against #145 Ball State. 4 of our 5 losses came to teams ranked well below us included a loss to #189 Army. Is that 1 close loss against Syracuse the only thing carrying us or are these rankings skewed by prior seasons? I'm not sure the methodology they use but something seems wrong when we're 1 spot above a Texas A&M team that has wins over 2 top100 teams (beat #67 Auburn and #76 Miss St).

The metrics are based on the team's performance on the floor and who they are playing against and not about the result of a game.  So yes, playing well against good teams and losing and just barely losing to bad teams will give a team a higher rating than a team that simply losses to those same teams by comfortable margins.

Buffalo's Luck rating by KenPom is #345 with the higher number (worse rating) meaning that the team is unlucky.  This would be consistent with the gripes people have about closing out games.  But often unlucky teams end up having big wins and going on big runs late in the season or in the next season in part because they are much better than their record and people look past them.

[UB92]

On 1/21/2021 at 12:25 AM, 961819 said:

I’m going to stop you right there. I truly hope people read this and don’t selectively pick and choose lines from it to have opinions on. Also, admins- please do not alter this comment as it has no profanity and this is a discussion board for fans of the program to discuss the program. This will be a lengthy response. Also, dutchcountry, I’m not sure if you’re well-studied, making pure assumptions, or if you yourself are a staff member of one of the athletic programs but you listed some info in your responses that for us fans would be ....very hard info to come across through research. 

I was out of town a few days and am getting back to this board this morning.

961819:  I will tell you that I read past a few people's comments on this board because, I assume, they are either paid to do this or make me dumber for reading their posts (or both).   Their approach is to not confront the comment, but use logical fallacies (typically false equivalency) in often long, rambling responses.  Another strategy is to take a comment out of context or argue a different point than what is being made.  At any rate, I just ignore it now.  It's useless to engage in any reasonable discussion with people like that.  

 

Whitesell won yesterday, it seems.  Yea!   His team, at home and a 10 point favorite, won by 15 and shot the ball well.  Winning some games hasn't been the issue.  It is getting his team ready to play and play hard for the entire game -- especially after a win.   

I have been critical of Whitesell taking responsibility after a loss.  I've posted on a few occasions on this during the last year and a half..  A good contrast is what happened yesterday to Liverpool in a shock loss at home to Burnley.   Jurgen Klopp said this after his team lost its first prem game at home in several years "We lost a game which is impossible to lose but we did it,” Klopp said on NBCSN after the game. “And that’s my fault. My job is to make sure the boys feel the right feelings, the right amount of confidence, and obviously it didn’t work out."

That's my boldface.  And I don't mean to compare Whitesell to Klopp, but I thought the contrast was stark based on what I mentioned the other day and wanted to give an example of how a coach takes responsibility. 

 

By the way, no one will ever, ever tell me that UB isn't a B1G school.  Yes...right NOW it isn't, with that stupid track around the field, among other shortcomings.  But it is a large, "flagship" engineering-focused comprehensive research university that is an AAU school.  That is really nothing anyone in the MAC can boast AND it is everything that the B1G can boast (well...Nebraska is a bit debatable in some areas).  

Also, no one cares one bit about Stony Brook athletics.  If anyone tells you that, turn around and run in the other direction.  

[promotherobot]

UB doesn't have the student body population of other flagship state universities. I blame the SUNY system that puts schools at every lighted intersection in New York. Compared to say the Illinois system with a dozen schools, SUNY has 65 campuses. So Buffalo will never become a 50-60K student school like others in the B1G. Why could it when there are other SUNY schools closer to you?

[BrooklynBull]

23 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

UB doesn't have the student body population of other flagship state universities. I blame the SUNY system that puts schools at every lighted intersection in New York. Compared to say the Illinois system with a dozen schools, SUNY has 65 campuses. So Buffalo will never become a 50-60K student school like others in the B1G. Why could it when there are other SUNY schools closer to you?

The SUNY schools are at three levels, University, State College and Community College.  California has three separate systems for this.  How many does Illinois have and what are the total number of campuses counting all levels.

[UBlearns]

12 hours ago, clodney said:

Honest question, how the hell are we #111 in Kenpom? We are .500 with our best win coming against #145 Ball State. 4 of our 5 losses came to teams ranked well below us included a loss to #189 Army. Is that 1 close loss against Syracuse the only thing carrying us or are these rankings skewed by prior seasons? I'm not sure the methodology they use but something seems wrong when we're 1 spot above a Texas A&M team that has wins over 2 top100 teams (beat #67 Auburn and #76 Miss St).

One of the main reasons I like to look at Torvik's ranks rather than Kenpom is because they give a more detailed graphical/statistical analysis.  I'm sure Kenpom does as well but I think it's behind a paywall.  They're generally pretty comparable.  Also, I do know that Kenpom doesn't take wins/losses into account - it looks strictly at how the team played.

Looking at Torvik's overall "game score" metric, which kinda ties all of the analytics together, we can see that UB has played 6 games with a score of 78 or above, average rating of 84.83.  This rating, if UB played at this level every game, would put them on par with Seton Hall at #41 in the country.  But UB has had some clunkers as well, notably a 14 game score in the 2nd BG game.  

This all paints a picture of the team being inconsistent.  When they're playing well, shooting the ball well, they're capable of playing like a very top mid-major.  But when they're having an off-night....it's a major off-night.

But what is very interesting to me is a comparison to last year.  UB had 32 games last year compared to 11 this year.  UB played 8 games last year at a 78-or-better rating - they've played 6 already this year.  UB played 9 games last year with a 40-or-below rating.- they've only had 2 such games this year.  Even worse, UB had 7 (!) games with a 25-or-below rating last year - they've only done this once this season (2nd BG game).

Taking all of this into account, the improvement in rating makes a bit of sense to me.  It's still an inconsistent team like last year.  But the peaks are just as good as last year and happening more frequently, and the valleys have not been nearly as bad as last year's valleys.

[Jeseph]

But who cares about these ratings? Sure maybe some of the dedicated fans here monitor them (and I appreciate the detailed insights at times) but if they don't translate to wins the general public doesn't care, potential donors don't care, media outlets don't care. The "state of the program", IMO, is simply judged on Ws and Ls. Sure, if we play a bunch of power teams and hang with them that can help but I don't think anybody cares about an "almost comeback" against another middling MAC team...