Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[trueblue32]

21 hours ago, Erie County said:

The thing here is has one recruit worked out beside Mballa? The team is in bad shape. The ending of the Oats recruits are carrying this team to a slight above .500 average, but the team has no future. 

Does Mballa even stay? With the new changes?

You can't miss on Hardnett, Robinson, Gallion, Skogman, and potentially Zachary, and continue a successful program. 

BG gets huge minutes from Methany (top of the conference and difference making Fresh). It happens, it's the MAC.

It's time for a change when you go 1-3 against BG and first time swept since 2010.

We're punting on Skogman already? Hardnett is a fine role player as a sophomore.

 

I think the weird thing about the Whitesell hate is the assumption that Oats has us in a significantly better situation.

Andre Allen did nothing at ASU and is now averaging 3.6 PPG at Southern as a senior (KenPom #256)

Raymond Hawkins did nothing at Alabama and now for whatever reason hasn't touched the floor at Long Beach State (KP #264).

Noah Williams is the third best player on a Washington St. team that came in second to last in the P-12 last season (KP #129).

James Rojas plays at Alabama but produces (4 PPG, 3 RPG) less than Montell McRae our top 25 year, he's not a game changing player.

I don't think that the roster is significantly better if Oats was here right now given that Mballa wouldn't be here without the de-commits listed above.  The truth is that this year's team is currently rated more highly and has improved more from the first year team than Oats' second year team and has a higher win% thus far (if that's what you're focused on).  This team is on a similar trajectory as the team after Oats' second year, with the major difference being that the current core is juniors (Mballa, Williams, Segu), while Oats' core was sophomores (Massinburg, Perkins).  All that said, success is cyclic for the most part at the mid-major level, next year will probably be this group's peak and barring major transfer additions we won't burn as bright as Oats' last team, but we should hopefully be a top 80ish team, which is good as a mid-major.  The reasonable hope is that we iterate on that success with the next group, rather than blowing everything up and putting us another regime away from our peak.

[skrabukes]

11 minutes ago, trueblue32 said:

We're punting on Skogman already? Hardnett is a fine role player as a sophomore.

 

I think the weird thing about the Whitesell hate is the assumption that Oats has us in a significantly better situation.

Andre Allen did nothing at ASU and is now averaging 3.6 PPG at Southern as a senior (KenPom #256)

Raymond Hawkins did nothing at Alabama and now for whatever reason hasn't touched the floor at Long Beach State (KP #264).

Noah Williams is the third best player on a Washington St. team that came in second to last in the P-12 last season (KP #129).

James Rojas plays at Alabama but produces (4 PPG, 3 RPG) less than Montell McRae our top 25 year, he's not a game changing player.

I don't think that the roster is significantly better if Oats was here right now given that Mballa wouldn't be here without the de-commits listed above.  The truth is that this year's team is currently rated more highly and has improved more from the first year team than Oats' second year team and has a higher win% thus far (if that's what you're focused on).  This team is on a similar trajectory as the team after Oats' second year, with the major difference being that the current core is juniors (Mballa, Williams, Segu), while Oats' core was sophomores (Massinburg, Perkins).  All that said, success is cyclic for the most part at the mid-major level, next year will probably be this group's peak and barring major transfer additions we won't burn as bright as Oats' last team, but we should hopefully be a top 80ish team, which is good as a mid-major.  The reasonable hope is that we iterate on that success with the next group, rather than blowing everything up and putting us another regime away from our peak.

Good post and while I agree on the premise of the post, if Nate was still here, all of those guy would be playing well as would the returning guys. Oats got the most out of his players, his team, everything. He's a great coach, which is why the team won 30 games in his final year here, and why his Alabama team is now having success after years of mediocrity. I have a hard time believing that we'll ever get another close to him. 

Back to the players themselves, the recruits that have been brought in have been "big" according to rating systems, but for the most part don't seem to be panning out. Is that coaching, the players, or other factors? No one on here who isn't part of the day-to-day dealings would be able to say for sure, I know that I can't anyway. I have belief in this team and hope that they can right the ship after Friday's tough loss. We'll find out more in a few hours!

[trueblue32]

9 minutes ago, skrabukes said:

Good post and while I agree on the premise of the post, if Nate was still here, all of those guy would be playing well as would the returning guys. Oats got the most out of his players, his team, everything. He's a great coach, which is why the team won 30 games in his final year here, and why his Alabama team is now having success after years of mediocrity.

He has coached 2 of the guys at Alabama and neither would elevate this team that much.  Oats inherited 2, maybe 3, NBA players at Alabama and then supplemented them with the 21st and 12th ranked recruiting classes.  He really hasn't done some miracle job in the player development department to turn that level of talent into the #18 team, although Hodgson and him are clearly getting it done in recruiting. Even at UB he had his fair share of misses (some leaving for non-basketball reasons): Stefan Duric, James Reese, Javion Hamlet, Quate McKinzie, James Jones.

To be clear, I would take Oats back over Whitesell in a heartbeat, I just think a lot of the criticism around here is not rooted in reality/reasonable expectation

[NYS Bulls]

9 minutes ago, trueblue32 said:

He has coached 2 of the guys at Alabama and neither would elevate this team that much.  Oats inherited 2, maybe 3, NBA players at Alabama and then supplemented them with the 21st and 12th ranked recruiting classes.  He really hasn't done some miracle job in the player development department to turn that level of talent into the #18 team, although Hodgson and him are clearly getting it done in recruiting. Even at UB he had his fair share of misses (some leaving for non-basketball reasons): Stefan Duric, James Reese, Javion Hamlet, Quate McKinzie, James Jones.

To be clear, I would take Oats back over Whitesell in a heartbeat, I just think a lot of the criticism around here is not rooted in reality/reasonable expectation

I can speak for myself and maybe others, that the expectation is that they don't lose first round games to not even make it to the top 8 of the MAC (Cleveland). 

It isn't just about the makes or misses of a recruiting class. You can have misses if you have many players where a majority of Oats' players left because they weren't getting time. UB had Carruthers, Segu, Williams, and Graves behind his starters. That's a deep team. 

Right now we are considering 3.5 PPG Hardnett a role player because the team has zero bench, as evidence by the misses of the recruiting team. Noah Williams is a 12 PPG starting PG shooting 45% from three, you forgot to add that in. The team could desperately use this. He's 2nd on the team, not 3rd. 

UB is one of the most vet teams in college basketball. Top 15 i think as stated on the broadcast. We complained a lot about how they were "so young" last year. 

[Jeseph]

1 hour ago, trueblue32 said:

but we should hopefully be a top 80ish team, which is good as a mid-major.

Oh man, with a few good recruits we could be top 75, that should sell some tickets!!!

[trueblue32]

14 minutes ago, NYS Bulls said:

I can speak for myself and maybe others, that the expectation is that they don't lose first round games to not even make it to the top 8 of the MAC (Cleveland). 

It isn't just about the makes or misses of a recruiting class. You can have misses if you have many players where a majority of Oats' players left because they weren't getting time. UB had Carruthers, Segu, Williams, and Graves behind his starters. That's a deep team. 

Right now we are considering 3.5 PPG Hardnett a role player because the team has zero bench, as evidence by the misses of the recruiting team. Noah Williams is a 12 PPG starting PG shooting 45% from three, you forgot to add that in. The team could desperately use this. He's 2nd on the team, not 3rd. 

-I agree about the first point, obviously.

-It's easier to say that it's a deep team when you see how Segu, Williams, and Graves have developed.  We don't know what Hardnett will become, or what Robinson would have become, it seems Gallion was a miss.  Williams and Segu posted freshman year ORtg's of 94.1 and 89.5 respectively, compared to a D1 average of 104.3.

-Williams is the third best player behind Isaac Bonton and Efe Abodigi.  I didn't say third leading scorer.  He was a 15% 3 point shooter last year, over a full year he's probably somewhere between.  Still he improved, good for him, more evidence that giving up on underclassmen is silly.

6 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Oh man, with a few good recruits we could be top 75, that should sell some tickets!!!

That would probably be the fourth best team in school history, and right around the caliber of Oats' third year team which was a fun year, which is all I really care about.  As I said, unreasonable expectations and such.  I'm sure the ticket office appreciates the concern though.

[UB05]

Some people around here sound like a broken record. I prefer to be optimistic and hope that we make a run and win the MAC tournament again... after all we’re the defending champs 

[121Merrimac]

9 minutes ago, UB05 said:

Some people around here sound like a broken record....

To be fair, I think both sides of the discussion will say that about the other.

[UBlearns]

2 hours ago, trueblue32 said:

James Rojas plays at Alabama but produces (4 PPG, 3 RPG) less than Montell McRae our top 25 year, he's not a game changing player.

For what it's worth, I try to watch Alabama basketball games whenever I can, and I don't think this is a fair characterization of Rojas.  He looks to me like the type of player who would feast in the MAC.  He's a bit of a tweener in the SEC, doesn't have the length to consistently dominate as a 4, and perhaps not a good enough outside shooter for a 3. 

He's also in the mix with several solid players.  Herb Jones is basically the senior heart-and-soul of the frontcourt, Bruner is a grad transfer with length that Rojas doesn't have, and Reese is a solid veteran presence.  They're a top 25 team right now partially due to this depth - which was also an Oats hallmark while he was here.

Rojas may not have the size to play the 4 in the SEC, but he absolutely has the size to play the 4 in the MAC.  He's a bruiser out there and is a surprisingly smooth shooter for a guy his size.  He and Mballa together in the frontcourt would absolutely dominate MAC bigs.  Rojas may not be a game-changer in the SEC, but I suspect he would've been one in the MAC, just based on my "eye test".

[UB05]

52 minutes ago, 121Merrimac said:

To be fair, I think both sides of the discussion will say that about the other.

Yeah, but the difference is people don’t come here after every win to gloat like people do after every loss to whine. 

[UB05]

1 minute ago, Erie County said:

We have rules now on when you can post in the whitesell thread? 

If you just watched this last half of basketball and enjoyed it, meh, i'm not sure what to say. 

Then I really know you will like the next coach because it aint gonna be worse than this

What are you talking about? Rules on what you can post? I come here for UB discussion and information and it’s the same couple people saying “fire Whitesell” every other day like it adds anything constructive. Post whatever you want, I don’t care. I also don’t have to enjoy or agree with everything. Do you not see the irony of you complaining about me complaining about others? 

[Dabulls]

Even if we miraculously beat Kent state my views won’t change, we keep coming out in the first half unorganized and with little effort. Something needs to change 

[UB05]

3 minutes ago, Erie County said:

The difference is im not complaining. Im just stating we come here because we are thoroughly disappointed in the program and its not a broken record opinion. 

I'm commenting because you are referencing comments by me and many others. 

The is playing like trashcan and we say so on this thread. 

Seriously, you'll be happy when the guy is gone because it isnt worse than this

I want the coach to succeed, everyone should. If it doesn’t work out it doesn’t work out, I don’t know why people act like cheering for success somehow means I enjoy losing or am happy with being swept by bowling green 

[RecoveringHillbilly]

3 years left after this season on his deal, doubly bad deal where it should have been 4....yeah Reggie was let loose with 3 years left, but with pandemic finances it may be too tough to pull off. Only a miracle can save our sanity this season, or hope Jack jacking up 3's better than Graves can change anything next year. I can't see Whitesell doing either to this point, he may just do well enough to get to year 4 which is troubling to imagine.

[121Merrimac]

26 minutes ago, UB05 said:

Yeah, but the difference is people don’t come here after every win to gloat like people do after every loss to whine. 

Ah, gotcha.  Agreed, the frequency is not the same.

[SGBull]

While I am not a huge fan of Whitesell at this point, I think the big issue a lot of posters have is that people have unrealistic expectations. There has been negative comments about Leipold this year. We went 6-1, won a bowl game, ended in the Top 25 and have had the best stretch of football in UB history. But people still aren't happy with Leipold because he hasn't won the MAC yet.

Yes, it is good to have high expectations, but sometimes it is just tiring to read people constantly complaining. Everyone has the right to post their opinion here, but it is hard to take people seriously when they throw shade at the best UB football coach of all time.

[Jeseph]

Hey .500 isn’t a losing record!

[Chet]

Whitesell Has gotta go. I’ve seen enough. 

[UBinMD]

2 minutes ago, Erie County said:

just his career record

Blame the coach if you like, ultimately the bucks stops with him, so I get it. The players obviously have the talent and can play outstanding basketball. For whatever reason they are struggling to put it all together. They need to stop coming out ice cold and putting in furious comebacks and learn to finish. If those two things happen, it could end up as a special year. We will see if they can turn that corner or not in the coming weeks. I was very angry at halftime like everyone else, but the coach can't make these guys hit simple layups, which they have been missing the last several games. I would really like to see a smooth 40 minutes just to see how good they could be.

[NYS Bulls]

11 minutes ago, UBinMD said:

Blame the coach if you like, ultimately the bucks stops with him, so I get it. The players obviously have the talent and can play outstanding basketball. For whatever reason they are struggling to put it all together. They need to stop coming out ice cold and putting in furious comebacks and learn to finish. If those two things happen, it could end up as a special year. We will see if they can turn that corner or not in the coming weeks. I was very angry at halftime like everyone else, but the coach can't make these guys hit simple layups, which they have been missing the last several games. I would really like to see a smooth 40 minutes just to see how good they could be.

The coach continued to push the pace up 6 with 2 minutes left. 

Every coach stands at the key with segu both times, they win. 

He also, out of a time out called a 35% three point attempt, down 1. 

Those are all egregious errors

[Jeseph]

26 minutes ago, UBinMD said:

Blame the coach if you like, ultimately the bucks stops with him, so I get it. The players obviously have the talent and can play outstanding basketball. For whatever reason they are struggling to put it all together. They need to stop coming out ice cold and putting in furious comebacks and learn to finish. If those two things happen, it could end up as a special year. We will see if they can turn that corner or not in the coming weeks. I was very angry at halftime like everyone else, but the coach can't make these guys hit simple layups, which they have been missing the last several games. I would really like to see a smooth 40 minutes just to see how good they could be.

The rest of your post is the reason this falls on the coach

[Tee4three]

How many leads has UB blown in the final tv time out this season? How many have been multiple possessions? How many under 2 minutes and multiple possessions?

 

[Ubbulls84]

26 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

How many leads has UB blown in the final tv time out this season? How many have been multiple possessions? How many under 2 minutes and multiple possessions?

 

They were up 6 with 2 minutes left. Kent didn’t even hit a shot or anything. Complete mismanagement and stupidity in crunch time. It falls on the coach no doubt about it. Then you have plenty of time and chuck up a 3 in a one point game. Complete collapse in IQ down the stretch of game and not just in the last possession in the multiple possessions before that also...

[UB92]

13 hours ago, SGBull said:

While I am not a huge fan of Whitesell at this point, I think the big issue a lot of posters have is that people have unrealistic expectations. There has been negative comments about Leipold this year. We went 6-1, won a bowl game, ended in the Top 25 and have had the best stretch of football in UB history. But people still aren't happy with Leipold because he hasn't won the MAC yet.

Yes, it is good to have high expectations, but sometimes it is just tiring to read people constantly complaining. Everyone has the right to post their opinion here, but it is hard to take people seriously when they throw shade at the best UB football coach of all time.

 

I guess I will speak for the posters that have, as you say, "unrealistic expectations".

Here is my unrealistic expectation:  the MAC is crap.   UB NEEDS to dominate the MAC year in and year out.  That's my expectation.  I don't know why you call it unrealistic?  UB is not at all like the other schools we compete against.  They are all regional schools while UB is a B1G school playing in the MAC.

A few years ago, when UB was up to 14 or so in the basketball polls, there was this "Buffalo can be the Gonzaga of the East". 

That's is a goal.  The is the expectation.

So when posters come on here and whine about "too much complaining" or "negative comments" or "things are cyclic", I laugh and cry at the same time.  

LL?  Great job, so far.  Now go out and win again -- this time, win a championship.

JW?  I've written enough when he was hired and nothing he has done so far has changed my opinion.  Indeed, his performance as a coach is even worse than I would have thought.  Here is what he said after the latest loss (when the team was losing by about 20 at half) "You saw what we can do in the second half today when we play as a team and we make a commitment on the defensive end.  I am disappointed we didn't do that in the first half, and we are going to have to find a way to do that for 40 minutes."

I don't understand how this coach fails to take responsibility ONCE for the performance of the team.  He's "disappointed"?  So are we.  WHY didn't they make a commitment for the 40 minutes?  It is YOUR JOB as coach to make sure that happens.  It is laughable at this point, but "I am being negative".    Do your job.

Don't even get me started on taking a 3 down when you are down by 1.  Oops.  Sorry for having "unrealistic expectations" that a college coach should make sure his team does what he asks (if he did ask) and, if not, make sure there are repercussions.

By the way, I typically write these frustrating posts and then delete them...their value is mostly to me.   I am leaving this one up, though.

 

To end on a positive, I am happy that Kevin Marks came back.

 

[NYS Bulls]

2 hours ago, UB92 said:

 

I guess I will speak for the posters that have, as you say, "unrealistic expectations".

Here is my unrealistic expectation:  the MAC is crap.   UB NEEDS to dominate the MAC year in and year out.  That's my expectation.  I don't know why you call it unrealistic?  UB is not at all like the other schools we compete against.  They are all regional schools while UB is a B1G school playing in the MAC.

A few years ago, when UB was up to 14 or so in the basketball polls, there was this "Buffalo can be the Gonzaga of the East". 

That's is a goal.  The is the expectation.

So when posters come on here and whine about "too much complaining" or "negative comments" or "things are cyclic", I laugh and cry at the same time.  

LL?  Great job, so far.  Now go out and win again -- this time, win a championship.

JW?  I've written enough when he was hired and nothing he has done so far has changed my opinion.  Indeed, his performance as a coach is even worse than I would have thought.  Here is what he said after the latest loss (when the team was losing by about 20 at half) "You saw what we can do in the second half today when we play as a team and we make a commitment on the defensive end.  I am disappointed we didn't do that in the first half, and we are going to have to find a way to do that for 40 minutes."

I don't understand how this coach fails to take responsibility ONCE for the performance of the team.  He's "disappointed"?  So are we.  WHY didn't they make a commitment for the 40 minutes?  It is YOUR JOB as coach to make sure that happens.  It is laughable at this point, but "I am being negative".    Do your job.

Don't even get me started on taking a 3 down when you are down by 1.  Oops.  Sorry for having "unrealistic expectations" that a college coach should make sure his team does what he asks (if he did ask) and, if not, make sure there are repercussions.

By the way, I typically write these frustrating posts and then delete them...their value is mostly to me.   I am leaving this one up, though.

 

To end on a positive, I am happy that Kevin Marks came back.

 

The first thing Bills coach Sean McDermott says after one of his three losses was "i did a bad job coaching, it's 100% on me". I think a lot of us are looking for that after one of the worst halfs of basketball in memory. The professional coach in the final 4 can do it, the MAC .500 coach should be able to do it as well. 

Not to mention going fast with 20+ seconds on the shot clock twice in a row, resulting in a loss. That was almost as bad as drawing up a 38% 3 point shooter at the end of the game. That play has a (you guessed it) ...... 38% chance to work.