Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[clodney]

I thought the Bowling Green game was bad and that it was going to be an outlier in the MAC season. Instead, we follow it up with perhaps the least inspirational first half of basketball in the past decade. What the hell happened to this team? Why does Graves look like he's gotten consistently worse and doesn't even belong on the floor anymore? Why are we asleep at the wheel at the beginning of every game? Where is the ball movement? The blue collar mentality? All of the things that Oats demanded of his players are now just marketing tools that the team obviously isn't buying into anymore.

[skrabukes]

19 hours ago, trueblue32 said:

He has coached 2 of the guys at Alabama and neither would elevate this team that much.  Oats inherited 2, maybe 3, NBA players at Alabama and then supplemented them with the 21st and 12th ranked recruiting classes.  He really hasn't done some miracle job in the player development department to turn that level of talent into the #18 team, although Hodgson and him are clearly getting it done in recruiting. Even at UB he had his fair share of misses (some leaving for non-basketball reasons): Stefan Duric, James Reese, Javion Hamlet, Quate McKinzie, James Jones.

To be clear, I would take Oats back over Whitesell in a heartbeat, I just think a lot of the criticism around here is not rooted in reality/reasonable expectation

There are a lot of teams that have big recruiting classes, but unless the players buy in to the coach/system, it doesn't matter. UB didn't have a top 20 national recruiting class when they were ranked in the top 25, but Oats built a system that they bought into and the whole was greater than the sum of it's parts (the parts were very good, better than their "rankings"). Now, he has tremendously talented players (according to the rankings) and they've bought in (much more than last year, or even the beginning of the season) and the proof is in the results. They're fun to watch, much like we were during the "big year". I am fully behind this team and it's staff, but it's definitely different now than before.

[Jeseph]

20 minutes ago, clodney said:

All of the things that Oats demanded of his players are now just marketing tools that the team obviously isn't buying into anymore.

Oats HATED losing. Oats made his players HATE losing. JW doesn't need to come out and cry during his presser but it's always "🤷🏻‍♂️ gotta be better". It's a broken record to bring this up but I will never get over the fact that this team posts their own highlights on social media minutes after losing, no matter the circumstances of the loss. They're just attending UB for a free chance to ball out on TV.

[SGBull]

2 hours ago, UB92 said:

 

I guess I will speak for the posters that have, as you say, "unrealistic expectations".

Here is my unrealistic expectation:  the MAC is crap.   UB NEEDS to dominate the MAC year in and year out.  That's my expectation.  I don't know why you call it unrealistic?  UB is not at all like the other schools we compete against.  They are all regional schools while UB is a B1G school playing in the MAC.

A few years ago, when UB was up to 14 or so in the basketball polls, there was this "Buffalo can be the Gonzaga of the East". 

That's is a goal.  The is the expectation.

So when posters come on here and whine about "too much complaining" or "negative comments" or "things are cyclic", I laugh and cry at the same time.  

LL?  Great job, so far.  Now go out and win again -- this time, win a championship.

JW?  I've written enough when he was hired and nothing he has done so far has changed my opinion.  Indeed, his performance as a coach is even worse than I would have thought.  Here is what he said after the latest loss (when the team was losing by about 20 at half) "You saw what we can do in the second half today when we play as a team and we make a commitment on the defensive end.  I am disappointed we didn't do that in the first half, and we are going to have to find a way to do that for 40 minutes."

I don't understand how this coach fails to take responsibility ONCE for the performance of the team.  He's "disappointed"?  So are we.  WHY didn't they make a commitment for the 40 minutes?  It is YOUR JOB as coach to make sure that happens.  It is laughable at this point, but "I am being negative".    Do your job.

Don't even get me started on taking a 3 down when you are down by 1.  Oops.  Sorry for having "unrealistic expectations" that a college coach should make sure his team does what he asks (if he did ask) and, if not, make sure there are repercussions.

By the way, I typically write these frustrating posts and then delete them...their value is mostly to me.   I am leaving this one up, though.

 

To end on a positive, I am happy that Kevin Marks came back.

 

I agree on Whitesell, I am not happy with his performance so far. 

To say we are a Big ten school playing in the MAC is unrealistic. We have a football field that has a track around it and only seats ~25,000. I agree that we should be top of the MAC and hopefully can get to a better conference, but we just don't have Big Ten level facilities at this time.

[Tee4three]

Last night is a game that gets a coach fired

Well really the last 2 games

[dutchcountry7]

4 hours ago, UB92 said:

UB is a B1G school playing in the MAC.

This is a joke right?

Is Stony Brook a B1G school playing in the AEC?

Is UMass a B1G school playing in the A10?

Is Texas State a B1G (or B12) school playing in the Sun Belt?

I could go on...

What metrics could you possibly be using that don't apply to other schools which you think makes UB a B1G school?

Seriously, Miami and Ohio are no different than UB.  I get thinking the most of our school and program but you're delusional. 

[dutchcountry7]

Skimmed the posts here after being busy... like others I was down about the result of the Kent State game.

But these results are not crazy.

UB is currently 111th in KenPom.  That is Whitesell's second year at the helm.  What was Oats' team at the end of his second year?  122th in KenPom.  Oats' team was lower performing in his second year than Whitesell's second year.  

No one is going to make the claim that Whitesell is as good of a coach as someone making millions a year.  We all know that if a coach is good they won't be at Buffalo for anything other than building their resume on to better things.  But it is crazy to make the claims that the program isn't in good shape.

[BrooklynBull]

27 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This is a joke right?

Is Stony Brook a B1G school playing in the AEC?

Is UMass a B1G school playing in the A10?

Is Texas State a B1G (or B12) school playing in the Sun Belt?

I could go on...

What metrics could you possibly be using that don't apply to other schools which you think makes UB a B1G school?

Seriously, Miami and Ohio are no different than UB.  I get thinking the most of our school and program but you're delusional. 

A large public flagship university playing FBS football.  UB was described as a Big Ten school in the late 1990s by President Greiner on that basis alone.

[BullBoy]

I haven't read through all of this so sorry if it has been spoken about, but i truly believe this is what Alnutt wants.  He doesn't want basketball to surpass our football program.  He is ok with a .500 basketball team as long as football is successful.  

I don't believe he is the right AD to lead this athletic department, but he is college football through and through and it will not change.

[Jeseph]

33 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

But it is crazy to make the claims that the program isn't in good shape.

What about last year's season, with a home loss to Dartmouth, ending in a loss in an opening around home game), and the current season to-date, combined with our our future prospects makes you feel good about the program's direction? Honestly asking.

[RecoveringHillbilly]

48 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

This is a joke right?

Is Stony Brook a B1G school playing in the AEC?

Is UMass a B1G school playing in the A10?

Is Texas State a B1G (or B12) school playing in the Sun Belt?

I could go on...

What metrics could you possibly be using that don't apply to other schools which you think makes UB a B1G school?

Seriously, Miami and Ohio are no different than UB.  I get thinking the most of our school and program but you're delusional. 

As an institution we are the only public AAU school not in a P5 League, and Rutgers, Maryland, Wisconsin, Virginia, Va Tech, Kansas, WVU, all classify UB as a peer. No other MAC school is seen in that way. 

As a program, no, our budget is 2nd to Ohio in league, and we spend less than some MAAC schools. You can only be the next Gonzaga if you do as they did, parlay years of winning into a basketball budget that dwarfs your conference mates.

[DooleyBull06]

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Skimmed the posts here after being busy... like others I was down about the result of the Kent State game.

But these results are not crazy.

UB is currently 111th in KenPom.  That is Whitesell's second year at the helm.  What was Oats' team at the end of his second year?  122th in KenPom.  Oats' team was lower performing in his second year than Whitesell's second year.  

No one is going to make the claim that Whitesell is as good of a coach as someone making millions a year.  We all know that if a coach is good they won't be at Buffalo for anything other than building their resume on to better things.  But it is crazy to make the claims that the program isn't in good shape.

I think some are forgetting one major thing.  Whitesell inherited a lot of Oats players.  Including Graves, Williams and Segu.  He then capitalized on how hot our name was to bring in some other talent.  The cupboard wasn't bare and the drop off wasn't supposed to be that great.  Sure this is his second season but so far it looks a lot like last season.  And last season was maddening.  That's coaching. We still had a team that was supposed to be able to win the MAC.  Now we are .500 team.  And trending down.  That's coaching.  All momentum built in the Oats era is diminishing.  Unless we do a complete 180 this season we will be a middle of the pack MAC team.  That was a rapid fall back to the rest of the pack despite having top MAC talent.  Coaching.

[RoughToughBulls15]

1 hour ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Skimmed the posts here after being busy... like others I was down about the result of the Kent State game.

But these results are not crazy.

UB is currently 111th in KenPom.  That is Whitesell's second year at the helm.  What was Oats' team at the end of his second year?  122th in KenPom.  Oats' team was lower performing in his second year than Whitesell's second year.  

No one is going to make the claim that Whitesell is as good of a coach as someone making millions a year.  We all know that if a coach is good they won't be at Buffalo for anything other than building their resume on to better things.  But it is crazy to make the claims that the program isn't in good shape.

Great to point out the KenPom ranking but KenPom quantifies total game and how it is played (additionally KenPom rankings also use priors). I think what most people are mad about here is the coaching specifically JW's lineup choices and late game handling. I dont think anyone would argue the team has some talent but he is a bad coach. The talent is keeping them in games and he is doing nothing to help.

 

Playing Brock more than 8 minutes a game is a fire able offense in itself.

[RecoveringHillbilly]

4 minutes ago, RoughToughBulls15 said:

Great to point out the KenPom ranking but KenPom quantifies total game and how it is played (additionally KenPom rankings also use priors). I think what most people are mad about here is the coaching specifically JW's lineup choices and late game handling. I dont think anyone would argue the team has some talent but he is a bad coach. The talent is keeping them in games and he is doing nothing to help.

 

Playing Brock more than 8 minutes a game is a fire able offense in itself.

Great points, though on Brock, what is the alternative? Because the rest of the bench are not better. Fagan wants to be like Montell McCrea, but can't pull it off. His averages are similar to Smart's and Raheem Johnson's, just a body in the middle, allowing Mballa and Williams play their true positions.

[Tee4three]

What is going on with the first halves?

Missed open lay ups and can't box out and grab a rebound to save their lives

Really these are the questions that need to be answered because if we don't fall behind by 20 plus pts in the first half each of the past 2 games both are wins

The first half mystery is up there with the last 4 minutes mystery. Absolutely maddening

[121Merrimac]

10 minutes ago, Tee4three said:

What is going on with the first halves? ...

This is what bothers me most.  
 

... well, and free throw shooting. 

[UBlearns]

2 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Skimmed the posts here after being busy... like others I was down about the result of the Kent State game.

But these results are not crazy.

UB is currently 111th in KenPom.  That is Whitesell's second year at the helm.  What was Oats' team at the end of his second year?  122th in KenPom.  Oats' team was lower performing in his second year than Whitesell's second year.  

No one is going to make the claim that Whitesell is as good of a coach as someone making millions a year.  We all know that if a coach is good they won't be at Buffalo for anything other than building their resume on to better things.  But it is crazy to make the claims that the program isn't in good shape.

Big picture, UB is still certainly a solidly above-average team and overall a reasonably good mid-major team.  I haven't really posted hot takes in this thread, because I want to give the coaching staff a benefit of a second full season, but the looming question in my mind is the direction in which the program is trending.

Torvik has 12 years' worth of data on his website.  He currently has UB ranked #112.  This is effectively on-par with Reggie's best season (#109 in 2011-12) and Hurley's worst season (#109 in 2013-14).  Oats' teams in 4 years were 134 - 143 - 66 - 29.

Realistically, the sweet spot of perhaps 50-80 in the ranks is the peak of where UB could realistically be on a regular basis.  This is where the best mid-majors in the country tend to sit, save for the truly elite teams like the UB golden year.  This is where you'll currently find teams like Boise State, BYU, Wichita State, Bona, Toledo, Davidson, SMU, Rhode Island, Saint Mary's, etc.  Of course, we want UB to strive to the best, but they need to be consistently in this tier before we can really talk long-term.  They were in this tier (or better) for 3 out of 5 years during the Hurley/Oats era, but they're certainly not in this tier now.

There is no question that the program is in a better spot today than it was in the Reggie era.  UB's average T-rank during the Reggie era (last 6 years only) was #146.  Under Hurley, it was #89.  Under Oats, it was #93 - but he did have a tall rebuilding task and the final 2 Oats years are the best the program has ever had.  This current team is in the above-average of UB historical teams, and honestly - I think that the team as constructed is extremely talented and clearly capable of making noise.  But the results aren't showing it, and a lot of that does fall on the coaching.

[121Merrimac]

Why doesn’t Lance need to be hands on, and coach?  If he can be a manager and delegate coaching to assistants, then Jim doesn’t deserve to be called a bad ‘coach’.  Maybe Coach just needs to fill the void left when Arnie Guin followed Nate down south. 

[dutchcountry7]

2 hours ago, RecoveringHillbilly said:

As an institution we are the only public AAU school not in a P5 League, and Rutgers, Maryland, Wisconsin, Virginia, Va Tech, Kansas, WVU, all classify UB as a peer. No other MAC school is seen in that way. 

As a program, no, our budget is 2nd to Ohio in league, and we spend less than some MAAC schools. You can only be the next Gonzaga if you do as they did, parlay years of winning into a basketball budget that dwarfs your conference mates.

That bold point is not correct at all.  Only FBS school but we aren't even the only public AAU in the state not in the P5.  There are a good number of public D1 schools not in P5 conferences.

The second point also doesn't include the fact that Buffalo also has some of the most travel in the conference.  The spending is there in operational costs but isn't exactly a luxury.  And the spending isn't anywhere near a P5 level.  

[dutchcountry7]

3 hours ago, BrooklynBull said:

A large public flagship university playing FBS football.  UB was described as a Big Ten school in the late 1990s by President Greiner on that basis alone.

Yeah, Presidents love to sell a grand vision for a school to raise money.  

I assume he would have said the same thing if he were at UMass or New Mexico.  He would still be right.  Though it wouldn't be any less a grand vision not based in current realities.

That is the ambition and rightly so.  So there is a long ways to go.  Buffalo has to win over WNY first and needs to expand the reach throughout the state.  There is a lot of work to do before there can be any claim to flagship status--especially with SUNY actively opposing any distinction of a System flagship.  

[dutchcountry7]

3 hours ago, Jeseph said:

What about last year's season, with a home loss to Dartmouth, ending in a loss in an opening around home game), and the current season to-date, combined with our our future prospects makes you feel good about the program's direction? Honestly asking.

The only thing you listed that I felt was bad was the MAC tournament loss at home last year.  But we are talking about a small sample size.  One game doesn't make or break a coaching hire.

I was on one of the people who was expecting big things out of the gate last year.  People hyped themselves up with unrealistic expectations for the opening of the season.  Losing to Dartmouth didn't surprise me.  The team was decimated with the departure of the staff and the way they instructed players to decommit.  They brought in some good new additions that took time to learn the system and play together.  It didn't matter who coached them, the team would have needed time to come together.  Maybe the staff should have done what Oats did for his first ever game coaching Buffalo when he brought in Pitt-Bradford to beat up on because he didn't think the team was ready to open with a D1 game.  

I believe the computer metrics tell us more than we can tell by being consumed as fans and wanting to win every game.  The team is better than you'd think they are.

I think the team is in a good place because of these metrics.  

Two metrics I consider to be quality metrics (which are consulted by the selection committee because they value them too) are Sagarin and KenPom.  Sagarin has Buffalo #96 and KenPom has Buffalo #111.

We need to look at this with some perspective.  Over the last 10 years the MAC has averaged one team in the final top-100 every year.  And the conference has had times where no team has been in the top-100.  Being top-150 in the country puts you in reach to win the MAC.  Staying top-150 puts the program in the upper 40% of teams.  You stay above that and you're in good shape.  (Falling below it doesn't necessarily call for firing but it is a metric that warrants concern and investigation if it isn't met.)

Being top-100 is the goal.  There are nearly 100 Power conference basketball teams with the P5 and Big East.  you add in the A10 teams like Dayton, VCU, Rhode Island, Saint Louis along with other perennially strong teams like Gonzaga, St Mary's, San Diego State, BYU, etc and you get over 100 really quickly.

Being in the top-100 is where the program wants to be.  From there you can get big wins.  The program was in position to beat Syracuse this year and if a normal year with a normal schedule and practice schedule likely would have a nice win--just like when they beat DePaul last year.

The team on the floor right now is better than the first one Oats took to the NCAA tournament.  They finished the year #138 in KenPom.  

The program is in good shape.  It has stability which is important.  It has players that are buying in to the program.  That is what is needed.

The results are disappointing because of the high expectations we have.  That's fine.  That can be good.  But some perspective is needed. 

There is no reason to warrant talk of a change.  The program is in good shape.  Give it time and see how it plays out. 

 

[RecoveringHillbilly]

44 minutes ago, dutchcountry7 said:

That bold point is not correct at all.  Only FBS school but we aren't even the only public AAU in the state not in the P5.  There are a good number of public D1 schools not in P5 conferences.

The second point also doesn't include the fact that Buffalo also has some of the most travel in the conference.  The spending is there in operational costs but isn't exactly a luxury.  And the spending isn't anywhere near a P5 level.  

I am aware. I didn't think I needed to differentiate us as the only public FBS AAU, as SBU and UC-Davis aren't going FBS any time soon. Only a few P5 schools list SBU as a peer. The majority of state flagships/systems in other states choose to compare themselves to UB or UB and SBU. We are a top 40 public U.

UB travel costs are not even the most in the MAC many years. We have one of the highest MAC budget but, right, we aren't even spending close to the Houston's and UCF's in the AAC. P5 tv money would only just cover our current institutional subsidy, we'd need to have more peel off 10 times the new advertisers we have earned with our recent sports successes.

[dutchcountry7]

3 hours ago, RecoveringHillbilly said:

I am aware. I didn't think I needed to differentiate us as the only public FBS AAU, as SBU and UC-Davis aren't going FBS any time soon. 

Why do you say SBU isn't going FBS?  They are as well positioned to be FBS as Buffalo.  In fact, I would argue they are better positioned.  

I would take their stadium any day over UB Stadium.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_P._LaValle_Stadium#/media/File:LavalleHomecoming2019.jpg

It is a fairly arbitrary line people like to draw.  Carve it out so that Rice and Tulane aren't included.  Another slice to exclude UC-Irvine or in-state academic rival Stony Brook.  Another slice to ensure UMass, Ohio, and Miami are not included.  Cut up so that any metric fits the narrative that UB is a Big Ten school just the Big Ten hasn't figured it out yet.

The Big Ten is an athletic conference.  Buffalo doesn't fit in the athletic conference.

I am on board with the sentiment.  I believe Buffalo could be a big deal; much bigger than it is. And I already believe it is a pretty big deal.  But there is a lot of potential there.  

First we have to have an honest assessment of what it is.  The gimmicks to try to accelerate it by using PR campaigns to convince people it is further along doesn't work.  The strategies that are used are the same ones that every other G5 (or FCS looking to become FBS) is employing.  And that is exactly why it won't work and hasn't worked.

 

[961819]

2 hours ago, dutchcountry7 said:

Why do you say SBU isn't going FBS?  They are as well positioned to be FBS as Buffalo.  In fact, I would argue they are better positioned.  

I would take their stadium any day over UB Stadium.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_P._LaValle_Stadium#/media/File:LavalleHomecoming2019.jpg

It is a fairly arbitrary line people like to draw.  Carve it out so that Rice and Tulane aren't included.  Another slice to exclude UC-Irvine or in-state academic rival Stony Brook.  Another slice to ensure UMass, Ohio, and Miami are not included.  Cut up so that any metric fits the narrative that UB is a Big Ten school just the Big Ten hasn't figured it out yet.

The Big Ten is an athletic conference.  Buffalo doesn't fit in the athletic conference.

I am on board with the sentiment.  I believe Buffalo could be a big deal; much bigger than it is. And I already believe it is a pretty big deal.  But there is a lot of potential there.  

First we have to have an honest assessment of what it is.  The gimmicks to try to accelerate it by using PR campaigns to convince people it is further along doesn't work.  The strategies that are used are the same ones that every other G5 (or FCS looking to become FBS) is employing.  And that is exactly why it won't work and hasn't worked.

 

I’m going to stop you right there. I truly hope people read this and don’t selectively pick and choose lines from it to have opinions on. Also, admins- please do not alter this comment as it has no profanity and this is a discussion board for fans of the program to discuss the program. This will be a lengthy response. Also, dutchcountry, I’m not sure if you’re well-studied, making pure assumptions, or if you yourself are a staff member of one of the athletic programs but you listed some info in your responses that for us fans would be ....very hard info to come across through research. 
 

I went to Stony Brook at the beginning of my collegiate career. They are located in Long Island. If you are unaware, their proximity to New York City and its surplus of professional teams means that their (SBU’s) sports are supported less than local high school teams are. Their student sections are non-existent at games and the only game where there was a respectable sized one was homecoming... and even then, that was only because local fighter Chris Algieri was making an appearance at the game ahead of his fight with the legendary Manny Pacquiao. The best part? All of the students left at halftime. The school’s students have zero interest in their sports programs.
 

Stony Brook had a very nice run recently with their men’s basketball program. The result of which was them losing their coach through a PROMOTION to.....Ohio of the “prestigious” MAC conference. Nobody at SBU cared, and it got zero publicity. When they were at their peak, the arena didn’t sell out games and there were barely any students. (Source: my own two eyes).

 The UB men’s basketball program is coming off of the best season in its entire history, right after having its best season the season before that. They one-upped their best season ever with an even better one. That combination of seasons not only launched UB into the national spotlight, it led to its greatest coach ever being poached by Alabama. A move that, as a fan, I hated and felt like I got punched in the gut but simultaneously a promotion that he absolutely deserved. It shows with his current performance at Alabama. In addition to it making us one of the more relevant non-P5 programs, comparable to the SDSUs, BYUs, etc- it also showed the country and this fan base what this school is capable of. Nate Oats brought this program to heights that we could’ve only ever dreamed of. There were serious discussions about how the arena may have needed to be expanded if success like that continued. Coaching makes or breaks a team completely. Coach Calipari of Kentucky does not win National Titles despite having NBA farm team rosters every year. This is because he is a good recruiter and businessman but not a great coach. Nate Oats is both an excellent recruiter and fantastic coach. What did this school do to replace the loss of the best coach this school has ever had? They promoted from within. A move that in the past worked because the coach that got promoted was a legendary high school coach with a history of winning at the highest level. However the promotion from within wasn’t their young, star-in-the-making assistant coach Jamie Quarles. They hired a fantastic assistant coach with a lackluster history as a head coach. 
 

My point with this response is to point out that we have seen what this school is capable of athletically speaking. It’s fantastic and exciting. We have the size of the other flagship athletic schools in the country and have shown flashes of pure athletic potential. That momentum, which is CRUCIAL for a mid major program, is now dead. We have an athletic director that was fortunate enough to come in to a school that had 3 fantastic coaches already in place. (Leipold, Jack, and Oats) When it was time for him to do his job and continue the success, he did not execute. Keeping the roster together would have been a smart move if we weren’t graduating one of the most amazing senior classes in college basketball history. The fans on this board are frustrated. They have every right to be. I know life-long fans that in previous seasons would have donated a kidney to attend these games with the level they were playing at. These same fans sat through the Reggie era and continued to be die hard fans. Now they don’t want to pay the money to have a cut out picture of themself in the arena because they’re disheartened and upset with the direction the program has gone in. That is huge. 
 

We can list Kenpom ratings until our hands fall off but the reality of that is we got absolutely embarrassed by a team that was ranked worse than us by those same ratings. Our players are not executing, they don’t have energy, they play without structure and without discipline and that comes directly from the coach.

[961819]

Oh and there’s a very good reason why the activity of this fan board has declined since Oats left. I wonder why?