Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[Jeseph]

One thing that’s being left out here is that if Whitesell had won more games he would have a better record. Just gotta fix those little things (winning) and he might be able to right the ship!

[DooleyBull06]

2 hours ago, Ubbulls84 said:

Is it me or does the regression of Jayvon Graves this year has been a big part of the story w this team. There was talk of Mac player of the year before season started. He consistently looks lost out there, shooting percentage way down, defense is subpar, shooting 50% from free throw line, turns ball over way too much, and can’t close at all, ever. For a senior with so much experience he’s just been a bust this year no other way to say it unless he has a big turnaround fast. 

Agree. His regression is shocking. Not from a stand point of I expected him to be all world or a vocal leader. But from the perspective that he isn’t even the same player we’ve seen over the course of his career here. He can’t hit shots! And this was a player who had games where he would make 6 3s and be lights out. I look at his eyes and see someone who has lost his confidence. Which was why when we had that win streak I said it was great that guys like Mballa, Williams and Segu were leading the way. Bc I felt that was good for Graves to fall back to being under the radar. The silent assassin.

But in another moment where the game was on the line, this team collectively came up small again. Turnovers, bad shot selection, no outside shooting, too much iso ball, no go to guy or go to play. And this is a constant theme since Whitesell took over. And the sadder part is that we’ve had countless in game opportunities to work on this. The only hope is that we eventually break through one time and that takes the monkey off everyone’s back. Bc it is clear that when the game is up for grabs with 5 minutes left, we tighten up and lose our minds. Collectively. 

[UB85]

54 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Agree. His regression is shocking. Not from a stand point of I expected him to be all world or a vocal leader. But from the perspective that he isn’t even the same player we’ve seen over the course of his career here. He can’t hit shots! And this was a player who had games where he would make 6 3s and be lights out. I look at his eyes and see someone who has lost his confidence. Which was why when we had that win streak I said it was great that guys like Mballa, Williams and Segu were leading the way. Bc I felt that was good for Graves to fall back to being under the radar. The silent assassin.

But in another moment where the game was on the line, this team collectively came up small again. Turnovers, bad shot selection, no outside shooting, too much iso ball, no go to guy or go to play. And this is a constant theme since Whitesell took over. And the sadder part is that we’ve had countless in game opportunities to work on this. The only hope is that we eventually break through one time and that takes the monkey off everyone’s back. Bc it is clear that when the game is up for grabs with 5 minutes left, we tighten up and lose our minds. Collectively. 

I was thinking about Jayvon earlier today. Regardless of what we think currently he will walk away from UB having one the best careers of any of player in the annals of UB basketball. He was a huge factor in his freshman and sophomore seasons. His contributions will always be appreciated! However, his game hasn’t advanced much of at all from two years ago. When he had the benefit of Harris, Perk, CJ and other top notch players around him he played an enormous contributory role. He rarely gets open looks from 3 where he has time and distance to set up properly and nail the shot without kick outs from Harris et al pressuring opposing defenses. His shots this and last year have been rushed which drives his makes down significantly. He also doesn’t benefit as he did two years ago from the high basketball of his teammates who knew when to pass the call and how to get it to the open man. Further he hasn’t improved his shooting form or ability. Plus when he takes to the hoop it is always a straight line to the hoop. He hasn’t developed the ability to pull up, pass to a teammate on the drive or take it back out if he gets bottled up in the lane leading to turnovers and misses which makes him way too predictable which leads opposing teams to collapse on him when he gets in the lane. I cannot imagine his frustration level. It’s a shame. But he like his teammates have to figure it out. 

[UBlearns]

3 hours ago, BullBoy said:

They are at Alabama because of under recruited guys like CJ, Perk, Caruthers, Harris that nobody would give a shot to and they had a chip on their shoulder..

I don't disagree with this, but I will just add a caveat that Harris was sought-after, not really underrecruited.  He was a top JUCO prospect (#2 in the nation on JUCOrecruiting after Oregon's Shakur Juiston, though that's taken with a grain of salt because they move prospects up/down based on offers).  247 had him as high 3-star and lists him as UB's 2nd highest-rated commit ever, after Jeenathan Williams.  But the rest of your post is valid, I agree with it.  We need some diamond-in-the-rough types.

[Ubbulls84]

2 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Agree. His regression is shocking. Not from a stand point of I expected him to be all world or a vocal leader. But from the perspective that he isn’t even the same player we’ve seen over the course of his career here. He can’t hit shots! And this was a player who had games where he would make 6 3s and be lights out. I look at his eyes and see someone who has lost his confidence. Which was why when we had that win streak I said it was great that guys like Mballa, Williams and Segu were leading the way. Bc I felt that was good for Graves to fall back to being under the radar. The silent assassin.

But in another moment where the game was on the line, this team collectively came up small again. Turnovers, bad shot selection, no outside shooting, too much iso ball, no go to guy or go to play. And this is a constant theme since Whitesell took over. And the sadder part is that we’ve had countless in game opportunities to work on this. The only hope is that we eventually break through one time and that takes the monkey off everyone’s back. Bc it is clear that when the game is up for grabs with 5 minutes left, we tighten up and lose our minds. Collectively. 

Completely agree w everything you said. He really looks lost out there. I remember watching game last year against Kent state where he was hitting difficult 3 after difficult 3. Took over the game and got us a win in overtime. Haven’t seen even 1 game with even a resemblance of same player. I don’t get it, it’s crazy to think he was talking about going to nba draft. Maybe that got into his head who knows. 

[everlast2504]

19 hours ago, Ubbulls84 said:

Completely agree w everything you said. He really looks lost out there. I remember watching game last year against Kent state where he was hitting difficult 3 after difficult 3. Took over the game and got us a win in overtime. Haven’t seen even 1 game with even a resemblance of same player. I don’t get it, it’s crazy to think he was talking about going to nba draft. Maybe that got into his head who knows. 

We may be missing the most obvious thing in the room. This isn't a normal year, these aren't normal circumstances. COVID could easily be effecting things. 

[squire17]

If you compare this UB team to the UB team of two years ago, one of the most glaring differences is the efficiency in 3 point shooting. Two years ago, the Bulls finished the year with 7(!) players who shot over 33% from 3. Ironically, that doesn’t include Harris because he shot a little over 27%.

Segu had a poor game against Toledo in just about any way you can measure it, including 3 point shooting. However, he has been Mr Efficiency from beyond the arc this year. Other than Fagan and Skogman, who have seen limited action, Segu is the only Bull with major minutes this year who exceeds 33% from 3. Graves most likely has been drawing a more capable guard than he was 2 years ago. It doesn’t explain the plummet in his free throw accuracy. Clearly, he should not be the go to guy at end of game situations. Depending on who the opponent is, that responsibility should belong to Williams, Segu, or Mballa.

[DooleyBull06]

3 hours ago, squire17 said:

If you compare this UB team to the UB team of two years ago, one of the most glaring differences is the efficiency in 3 point shooting. Two years ago, the Bulls finished the year with 7(!) players who shot over 33% from 3. Ironically, that doesn’t include Harris because he shot a little over 27%.

Segu had a poor game against Toledo in just about any way you can measure it, including 3 point shooting. However, he has been Mr Efficiency from beyond the arc this year. Other than Fagan and Skogman, who have seen limited action, Segu is the only Bull with major minutes this year who exceeds 33% from 3. Graves most likely has been drawing a more capable guard than he was 2 years ago. It doesn’t explain the plummet in his free throw accuracy. Clearly, he should not be the go to guy at end of game situations. Depending on who the opponent is, that responsibility should belong to Williams, Segu, or Mballa.

We were also a poor outside shooting team last year. And that is where Zachary, Brewton and Robinson were supposed to help. But oh wait...yea about them. 

Graves hasn’t shot well and although Williams has improved his outside shooting, he took only one 3 against Toledo and it came late in the game. Bottom line is we have two guards. 2! The losses of Zachery and Robinson and the injury to Brewton have severely put Graves and Segu on an island. Graves played 39 minutes the other night. And we don’t have a backup PG. I was also hoping that Gallion would be useful this season. But he hasn’t. 

[UB05]

No posts here since February 21st, interesting. Glad Jim has righted the ship and gotten the team on a roll, let’s hope we can carry this momentum into the tournament!

[Jeseph]

10 minutes ago, UB05 said:

No posts here since February 21st, interesting. Glad Jim has righted the ship and gotten the team on a roll, let’s hope we can carry this momentum into the tournament!

Honestly, all of my concerns remain the same. We've now won 2 games against the top-tier of the conference but have largely continued the in-game struggles that have plagued the team of the last 2 years. MAC Tournament success can change my mind but i'm not optimistic there, yet.

As far as not posting here. No reason to rain on the winning parade with the same points. It's more fun to yell when the whole crowd is mad.

[DooleyBull06]

Just like the team has shown improvement, so has Whitesell as a coach.  For example, one of my points of frustration with him was his tinkering with the starting lineup and player rotation.  Rather than set a lineup and let players adapt to their rolls, it seemed like he would wing it.  Since February he has settled on a starting 5 and set rotation of guys and when they come in.  Example: Nickelberry.  He usually comes in around the 16 minute mark and gets a stretch of playing time there. Usually to spot Rondo/Graves a blow. It has led to him playing with confidence. Getting Brock and Skoooggss some spotted minutes is good too.  Wish Brewton was around to add guard depth but it seems like we have to march on without him.  Overall as the team has grown so has Whitesell.  Now of course with that comes expectations.  Lets get it done in the Land.

[Tee4three]

The injuries to brewton and Brock forced whitesell to make changes that have really worked

Elevated skogman to get minutes and in turn made ub play a bigger line up

[UB92]

2 hours ago, UB05 said:

No posts here since February 21st, interesting. Glad Jim has righted the ship and gotten the team on a roll, let’s hope we can carry this momentum into the tournament!

Is it really that "interesting"?  This post is nothing but bait, like the ones in the other threads.

The team is winning -- they are a talented team.  No one disputed that.   It just appeared (and appears) that this coach is not going to keep us at the level expected.

If this team makes it to the MAC Championship game, I will start a thread that says "Jim Whitesell Appreciation Thread".  I am sure you and a few posters on this site will have it to three pages in no time.  There will also be graphs and tables.

[UB05]

18 minutes ago, UB92 said:

Is it really that "interesting"?  This post is nothing but bait, like the ones in the other threads.

The team is winning -- they are a talented team.  No one disputed that.   It just appeared (and appears) that this coach is not going to keep us at the level expected.

If this team makes it to the MAC Championship game, I will start a thread that says "Jim Whitesell Appreciation Thread".  I am sure you and a few posters on this site will have it to three pages in no time.  There will also be graphs and tables.

It is interesting to me, yes. I consider myself an optimistic fan, and when the team is winning and doing well I want to talk about it. Instead everyone just wants to complain when we’re losing games. I figured since a large part of the negativity was that we couldn’t beat a winning team, there would be some sighs of relief after we beat 2 on our way to a 4 game winning streak just before the tournament. But nope, silence. I hope we win the tournament and we get our Whitesell appreciation thread, because that’s a lot more fun than wallowing in negativity and picking on every little detail we don’t like.

[DocCas86]

37 minutes ago, UB92 said:

Is it really that "interesting"?  This post is nothing but bait, like the ones in the other threads.

The team is winning -- they are a talented team.  No one disputed that.   It just appeared (and appears) that this coach is not going to keep us at the level expected.

If this team makes it to the MAC Championship game, I will start a thread that says "Jim Whitesell Appreciation Thread".  I am sure you and a few posters on this site will have it to three pages in no time.  There will also be graphs and tables.

The graphs and tables offer an objective measure of the team's performance.  There is room for interpretation, and we can reach a different conclusion as to what they mean for team / coach performance, but that does not mean they have no value.    For example, using opponent offensive efficiency shows me that this team is possibly the best defensive team including Oats coached team (Oats last year was close).  They have been defending field goal attempts quite well as evidenced by the low opponent's 2pt and 3pt shooting percentage.  In addition, they are limiting second chance opportunities for their opponents.

[squire17]

Why does anyone object to the Bulls finishing fourth or fifth in the MAC? Look at what the head coaches are paid. Whitesell was hired on the cheap. That’s the UB way. 

[skrabukes]

50 minutes ago, Erie County said:

Not hard to get this point. When someone that tries to throw the it's all quiet line at you, ask them how recruiting looks and who is going to play guard with Segu next year? It's literally empty.

We will see if they don't get bounced by BG/Miam/Ohio next week before gloating about potentially finishing 4th-5th in the regular season again. 

 

Do we know if any of our current roster is actually leaving? Doesn't everyone get another year of eligibility? Maybe it will be the same roster. Unlikely,  but who truly knows at this point? Maybe everyone leaves, whether they graduate or transfer.  Only time will tell on that. All I know is this year's team has a shot at finishing 12-5 and that's pretty solid to me anytime.

[Tee4three]

We do know we have maceo jack joining next season

Is he with the team now practicing? Anyone know

[UB85]

3 hours ago, skrabukes said:

Do we know if any of our current roster is actually leaving? Doesn't everyone get another year of eligibility? Maybe it will be the same roster. Unlikely,  but who truly knows at this point? Maybe everyone leaves, whether they graduate or transfer.  Only time will tell on that. All I know is this year's team has a shot at finishing 12-5 and that's pretty solid to me anytime.

Pretty solid indeed. In the Reggie days we’d be dancing in the streets. However the bar was set extraordinarily high by Oats. We saw we could could have year in and year out with the right lives in place. So I think expectations have been raised. I know from perspective I always saw the vast potential of UB hoops. Great school. Vast student body. Vast alumni network. The only thing lacking was commitment by the university. It took off with the right people in place. The administration was beginning to see the effects of an enormously successful team. Danny White not only talked the talk, but walked the walk. Thus for many the expectations were reset. To me that was a great thing. Unfortunately the administration spit the bit by settling for less with ADs who didn’t possess the same level of belief in UB and the potential of the hoops team. So given the circumstances at present we should all be happy with 13-5 or 12-6 and hope for a successful run in Cleveland. 
 

Go Bulls!

[myBuffalo]

11 hours ago, Tee4three said:

We do know we have maceo jack joining next season

Is he with the team now practicing? Anyone know

We can see him on the bench with the team, glasses wearing, in sweats - and he is in a mostly celebratory mood after made shots and the like, my only assumption is that he is at every practice going at it with the team, preparing for next year. 

[UB92]

10 hours ago, UB85 said:

Pretty solid indeed. In the Reggie days we’d be dancing in the streets. However the bar was set extraordinarily high by Oats. We saw we could could have year in and year out with the right lives in place. So I think expectations have been raised. I know from perspective I always saw the vast potential of UB hoops. Great school. Vast student body. Vast alumni network. The only thing lacking was commitment by the university. It took off with the right people in place. The administration was beginning to see the effects of an enormously successful team. Danny White not only talked the talk, but walked the walk. Thus for many the expectations were reset. To me that was a great thing. Unfortunately the administration spit the bit by settling for less with ADs who didn’t possess the same level of belief in UB and the potential of the hoops team. So given the circumstances at present we should all be happy with 13-5 or 12-6 and hope for a successful run in Cleveland. 
 

Go Bulls!

There is a lot of truth in this post, unfortunately.  "Gonzaga of the East".  

Prior to UB football doing anything, the other MAC teams' fanbases would drag UB for being so crappy.  But they called them the sleeping giants.   It was only a matter of time for UB football.  And while there has been some ups and downs since that OT win vs Temple (four Fs, for example), it has been mostly up.

Oats took us to even greater heights in basketball and while he was NEVER going to stay, there was strong momentum.  

There is still momentum now for UB basketball, but not what it was.  And there is a lot of blame to go around, but mostly the UB administration and, to a good degree, the AD.  But those have already been discussed.

If people want to make a big deal (i.e. "where's the naysayers" ... "where's the fire Whitesell people") about UB beating the one-man-gang Akron team by 2 points after almost choking a big lead away, that's where we are on this board.

I don't blame Whitesell as a human...it is what it is.   But if he does make it to the final game, I will be shocked and will need to recalibrate my thoughts on his performance/ability.  I suspect I won't need to, but I will be very, very, very happy to do so (and start that promised thread).  After all, I bleed blue (and have, for several decades).

[UB05]

1 hour ago, UB92 said:

There is a lot of truth in this post, unfortunately.  "Gonzaga of the East".  

Prior to UB football doing anything, the other MAC teams' fanbases would drag UB for being so crappy.  But they called them the sleeping giants.   It was only a matter of time for UB football.  And while there has been some ups and downs since that OT win vs Temple (four Fs, for example), it has been mostly up.

Oats took us to even greater heights in basketball and while he was NEVER going to stay, there was strong momentum.  

There is still momentum now for UB basketball, but not what it was.  And there is a lot of blame to go around, but mostly the UB administration and, to a good degree, the AD.  But those have already been discussed.

If people want to make a big deal (i.e. "where's the naysayers" ... "where's the fire Whitesell people") about UB beating the one-man-gang Akron team by 2 points after almost choking a big lead away, that's where we are on this board.

I don't blame Whitesell as a human...it is what it is.   But if he does make it to the final game, I will be shocked and will need to recalibrate my thoughts on his performance/ability.  I suspect I won't need to, but I will be very, very, very happy to do so (and start that promised thread).  After all, I bleed blue (and have, for several decades).

No one’s coming in here after every win and trolling people over Whitesell. I would’ve expected some talk about the turnaround however, especially with the winning streak reaching 4 games. obviously that was not the case. Not sure why that’s considered an unreasonable take. Regardless I think we all just want what’s  best for the program, we just have different levels of patience and expectations. Go Bulls! 

[DocCas86]

I have compiled another chart / table combination - as I know everyone loves them. 😉 The data supplied is the distribution of MAC rankings (based solely on Kenpom), what Buffalo's ranking was, and where this placed us in terms of relative rank within the MAC.  I suspect this will do little to settle things between the glass half full and the glass half empty crowds.

We all agree we want the team to successful.  If this team makes it to NCAA, then the season is a success - and I feel this team can do that.  I do agree that the likelihood of that success is slightly lower than Oats / Hurley, but in fairness look at what Oats did with Alabama.  He is an exceptional coach - and I am not convinced that the alternatives to Whitesell would have been at Oats' level or significantly better than Whitesell.  With Whitesell at the helm, we have a chance to win the MAC this year, so I am a glass half full guy.

[121Merrimac]

1 hour ago, DocCas86 said:

I have compiled another chart ... 

Thank you Doc.  
I will always think highly of UB92 for welcoming me into ubfan years ago, but the recent comment against pictures shocked me.  

[DocCas86]

13 minutes ago, 121Merrimac said:

Thank you Doc.  
I will always think highly of UB92 for welcoming me into ubfan years ago, but the recent comment against pictures shocked me.  

I wasn't upset about it.  I took point that you can't rely just on data.  You need to make judgment on that data, which is a valid point. The last post being a case and point.

I was making a bit of a joke in my last post about the chart, people can always ignore.  I didn't mean to imply some great insult had occurred.

Edited March 4, 2021 by DocCas86