Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[Kevin]

3 minutes ago, Jeseph said:

Which part was wrong

The part where no one has a defense but "we won 20 games and lost to the #12" or "this was better than expected" or "you aren't a fan hater"

[Jeseph]

Do people really not understand why we want to be held to a higher standard than “20 win seasons”?

Hurley and Oats had us on a path to being better than that.

20 win seasons are what middling MAC teams hope for. I’m not excited by that anymore. We have the university size and flagship status to be more but we don’t consistently drive for athletic success. That’s a decision that the university can make but pains me as a supporter of the athletic department.

I genuinely do not think that Whitesell is capable of that next level of success. That sucks. If fans on here are so turned off by what I feel is fair criticism I’ll move on and support the team from afar.

The past 2 seasons were a disappointment and show very little hope future growth.

I’m not sure what else to say.

Go Bulls

[121Merrimac]

I don’t like that basketball’s success falls on the head coach, while football coaches get to (to some extent) lean on their assistants.  

[Kevin]

6 minutes ago, 121Merrimac said:

I don’t like that basketball’s success falls on the head coach, while football coaches get to (to some extent) lean on their assistants.  

That's fair. I'm fine with giving whatever one of Whitesell's assistant the blame as well. 

Thorpe came in with an underwhelming profile from losing programs. Thats not opinion. The team's he's had recently were all horrible. His biggest achievements come with getting teams to secondary tournaments. 

Recruiting has been a disaster under Whitesell, leading to the dismissal of one coach when his activities went unnoticed. We have no idea about the new coach, he brought in an underwhelming Zachary and Brewton so far. 

Quarles ticks all the boxes so far to me. He is a great coach and helps with many facets of the team. Hired by Oats though, so that's not a surprise. 

[DooleyBull06]

Here's my thoughts on Whitesell.  I've never called for him to be fired or replaced.  In fact the jury is still out on him.  I do feel however that the window is closing.  In fact next season, if the junior class returns, could be our last best chance to make the big dance. A win tonight would've gone a loooong way in keeping that window open.  From year one to year two we showed growth but ultimately the same issues that got us last year, got us this year and tonight.  It will be interesting to see if Whitesell can recruit.  So far I would say his recruiting has been bad.  When two of your recruits encounter legal issues that's a bad look and a problem.  When the guy responsible for bringing Mballa over committed forgery or whatever, that's bad. Needs to change asap. My fear is that we will fall to the bottom of the MAC once this junior class is done. Unless we win it all next season, the window is closing. 

The team when all was said and done got to where I expected them to be this season.  The issue is how we lost. That first half was bad.  Both the players effort and the coaching tactics and strategies.  When things got rough Whitesell seemed to be grasping at straws, there was no reason for Brewton to be in the game.  Not having Graves guard Preston from the jump was a mistake.  Hopefully both the players and coach continue to grow.  Because guess what, if that junior class returns I have the same expectations.  MAC Championship.  Why?  Bc the bar has been set high and most the good players on this team are Oats holdovers.  So for one more year Whitesell has to win.  If he doesn't then I fear things will get bad.  I prolly have more thoughts but I'll post this for now.

[Chet]

1 hour ago, Jeseph said:

Do people really not understand why we want to be held to a higher standard than “20 win seasons”?

Hurley and Oats had us on a path to being better than that.

20 win seasons are what middling MAC teams hope for. I’m not excited by that anymore. We have the university size and flagship status to be more but we don’t consistently drive for athletic success. That’s a decision that the university can make but pains me as a supporter of the athletic department.

I genuinely do not think that Whitesell is capable of that next level of success. That sucks. If fans on here are so turned off by what I feel is fair criticism I’ll move on and support the team from afar.

The past 2 seasons were a disappointment and show very little hope future growth.

I’m not sure what else to say.

Go Bulls

Can’t disagree. Reasonable conclusions. Hiring Coach Whitesell was the right move at the time. I understand the arguments on why we should have went another direction when Whitesell got the promotion, but I thought it was the right move. He and his staff did a remarkable job after a 6-6 start to the season. But the 6-6 start represents his career numbers. It’s easy to second guess coaching decisions. We didn’t loose today because of coaching. Oats would have lost this game too. Ohio played really well and deserved to win. However, unless expectations are adjusted, many of us will likely be disappointed. I’m for a reset, but that’s not happening. Hopefully Whitesell outperforms his career numbers again next year. Go Bulls!

[NYS Bulls]

The MAC championship had to have been one of the worst game plans I’ve ever seen put together. 
 

Whitesell is never going to win anything. It’s best we move on now before it’s too late. The window is now down to one year and then big trouble. 

[DooleyBull06]

Here’s what I think will happen. Not saying I hope this happens. But mid major teams don’t fire winning coaches. Whitesell isn’t going anywhere. If you fire him now you run the risk of losing the big 3 juniors. The likely scenario is Whitesell is back next year. The season plays out. After that, barring hitting home runs in recruiting this off season and early next season, the rebuild begins. It is in that time where Whitesell might get an extension or if we have two straight losing seasons then the seat gets hot. But he’s guaranteed next season. I don’t know what his contract is but wouldn’t surprise me if he is extended this off season?

[RecoveringHillbilly]

39 minutes ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Here’s what I think will happen. Not saying I hope this happens. But mid major teams don’t fire winning coaches. Whitesell isn’t going anywhere. If you fire him now you run the risk of losing the big 3 juniors. The likely scenario is Whitesell is back next year. The season plays out. After that, barring hitting home runs in recruiting this off season and early next season, the rebuild begins. It is in that time where Whitesell might get an extension or if we have two straight losing seasons then the seat gets hot. But he’s guaranteed next season. I don’t know what his contract is but wouldn’t surprise me if he is extended this off season?

He's signed through 2024 so the seat wasn't so hot to begin with. And reaching the MACC+maybe a post-season invite+AD revenue dip = the staff have to go for it all and hope the young bigs blossom and solid MAC recruits come in.

[promotherobot]

7 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Here’s what I think will happen. Not saying I hope this happens. But mid major teams don’t fire winning coaches. Whitesell isn’t going anywhere. If you fire him now you run the risk of losing the big 3 juniors. The likely scenario is Whitesell is back next year. The season plays out. After that, barring hitting home runs in recruiting this off season and early next season, the rebuild begins. It is in that time where Whitesell might get an extension or if we have two straight losing seasons then the seat gets hot. But he’s guaranteed next season. I don’t know what his contract is but wouldn’t surprise me if he is extended this off season?

 

7 hours ago, RecoveringHillbilly said:

He's signed through 2024 so the seat wasn't so hot to begin with. And reaching the MACC+maybe a post-season invite+AD revenue dip = the staff have to go for it all and hope the young bigs blossom and solid MAC recruits come in.

Whitesell isn't getting fired after a 36-20 two season record. I think Dooley hit the nail.

[UBlearns]

13 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

Here's my thoughts on Whitesell. 

I'm cutting the rest of the post to save space, but I think you hit the nail on the head.  I stand by my initial thoughts on Whitesell - he's got 3 years to get this team back to the tournament.  He walked in, Day 1, with two of the top recruits in school history - the kinds of guys who don't go to MAC schools - a very valuable budding star junior, and frankly one of the most underrated players in program history in Davonta Jordan.  A little bit of player development, and some recruiting hits, and there is zero reason why this team shouldn't be back in the tournament within 3 years.

I know there was no tournament last year, but we know they got bounced badly in the first round, so I'm considering year 1 a failure despite no tournament.  

This year, all things considered, is where I thought the Bulls reasonably should be.  They're clearly much better than last year; the player development was there - the recruiting, however, was not.  My expectations are high for next year.  It's make or break for Whitesell.  Other teams will be good - Ohio will be just as strong next year, for example.

Unless this coaching staff comes up with a whirlwind strong recruiting class - which, based on past two years' results, I'm skeptical (to put it mildly) - IMO it's tournament-or-bust in March 2022.

[yussi1870]

Witherspoon career tournament appearances = 0 (1 NIT)

Whitesell career tournament appearances = 0 (1 NIT)

[skrabukes]

47 minutes ago, yussi1870 said:

Witherspoon career tournament appearances = 0 (1 NIT)

Whitesell career tournament appearances = 0 (1 NIT)

I'm not sure who the shot is directed towards (or if just pointing out facts), but one coached for well over a decade while the other has for 2 years. Not really an even comparison. 

[ubbulls08]

Won’t Prestley declare for the draft? I don’t see Ohio as that great without him 

[DooleyBull06]

19 minutes ago, ubbulls08 said:

Won’t Prestley declare for the draft? I don’t see Ohio as that great without him 

I’m sure he will at least test the waters. But if there ever is a player who can transfer up, it’s him. Sure a lot of P5s would want him. 

[mikescherrer8]

2 hours ago, skrabukes said:

I'm not sure who the shot is directed towards (or if just pointing out facts), but one coached for well over a decade while the other has for 2 years. Not really an even comparison. 

.465 winning percentage in 14 seasons. Lol. 

[skrabukes]

13 minutes ago, mikescherrer8 said:

.465 winning percentage in 14 seasons. Lol. 

and isn't lighting the world on fire where he is now.

[yussi1870]

4 hours ago, skrabukes said:

I'm not sure who the shot is directed towards (or if just pointing out facts), but one coached for well over a decade while the other has for 2 years. Not really an even comparison. 

I’m including all 10 years of Whitesell’s D1 head coaching experience.

[UB92]

11 hours ago, skrabukes said:

and isn't lighting the world on fire where he is now.

I said I wasn't going to comment in the basketball portion of the forum until JW is no longer coach, but that only lasted 6 days...but I feel it is important to stand up against this Reggie Witherspoon slander.

Reggie Witherspoon took over UB basketball when it was in a shambles and built a program from virtually nothing.  Yes...he never got to the NCAAs and that was his failing, but he built a competitive, often strong, team.  He should always hold a dear place in the heart of all UB basketball fans and the success that UB had during the past decade is, in part, because of RWs efforts.

[skrabukes]

31 minutes ago, UB92 said:

I said I wasn't going to comment in the basketball portion of the forum until JW is no longer coach, but that only lasted 6 days...but I feel it is important to stand up against this Reggie Witherspoon slander.

Reggie Witherspoon took over UB basketball when it was in a shambles and built a program from virtually nothing.  Yes...he never got to the NCAAs and that was his failing, but he built a competitive, often strong, team.  He should always hold a dear place in the heart of all UB basketball fans and the success that UB had during the past decade is, in part, because of RWs efforts.

Hardly is slander, but I don't know how you can call for the firing of JW after 2 years, yet defend RW to the hills after 14 years of far less success (and continued mediocrity at best now at canisius). Were the times different between now and 20 years ago? Absolutely.  Should the bar be higher now? Absolutely.  RW did a fine job righting the ship and taking UB from shambles to reasonably solid footing. In my opinion,  he got UB to the highest spot that he was capable of. BH and NO built upon that and won Championships. JW has been more than solid thus far and it's ridiculous to praise RW vehemently while knocking JW. Like another poster said a while back, if 20 wins and top 2 finish in the MAC isn't good enough for you, then you are confused on how Suny and mid majors work. I'd take a top 2 finish, with the opportunity to be in the title game, every single time. Bar raised? Heck yes, but at the same time be realistic and don't think that 30 wins is the new norm or level that success should be based upon. If the team doesn't win over the next few years and/or isn't in the top 3 yearly, then there is plenty to gripe about. Based on the first 2 years, I hardly think that there is any reasonable measure that would call for this staff's removal.

Edited March 19, 2021 by skrabukes

[UB92]

3 hours ago, skrabukes said:

Hardly is slander, but I don't know how you can call for the firing of JW after 2 years, yet defend RW to the hills after 14 years of far less success (and continued mediocrity at best now at canisius). Were the times different between now and 20 years ago? Absolutely.  Should the bar be higher now? Absolutely.  RW did a fine job righting the ship and taking UB from shambles to reasonably solid footing. In my opinion,  he got UB to the highest spot that he was capable of. BH and NO built upon that and won Championships. JW has been more than solid thus far and it's ridiculous to praise RW vehemently while knocking JW. Like another poster said a while back, if 20 wins and top 2 finish in the MAC isn't good enough for you, then you are confused on how Suny and mid majors work. I'd take a top 2 finish, with the opportunity to be in the title game, every single time. Bar raised? Heck yes, but at the same time be realistic and don't think that 30 wins is the new norm or level that success should be based upon. If the team doesn't win over the next few years and/or isn't in the top 3 yearly, then there is plenty to gripe about. Based on the first 2 years, I hardly think that there is any reasonable measure that would call for this staff's removal.

You almost goaded me into an actual response...but I will not...and it is not because I don't have things to say.  But you aren't worth it.

 

[121Merrimac]

5 hours ago, UB92 said:

... you aren't worth it.

I am very surprised by this comment.

[squire17]

Getting heated. Time out. Who has the .465 stat...Reggie? Give me a break. He came in to a situation where there was nothing. Nothing but hopelessness. And he started to build a DI program, which never made it to the NCAAs but at least it reached respectfulness. The shot about his role at Canisius? That’s a low blow if there ever was one. Look at the history of Canisius basketball. It isn’t pretty (and I’m an alum). Beilein stands out,  and Barron had a run...haha - his team made it to the CBI or whatever lies below the NIT. Even MacKinnon’s record there was mediocre, although his 1963 team made it to the NIT final. Reggie’s record at Canisius is actually better than average in comparison to several former Griff coaches.

I hope Whitesell is successful at UB, but I doubt that he will ever lead the program to sustainable winning. UB doesn’t have $10 mil to turn the page on bad hires, but his was a bad hire.

[yussi1870]

10 hours ago, skrabukes said:

Hardly is slander, but I don't know how you can call for the firing of JW after 2 years, yet defend RW to the hills after 14 years of far less success (and continued mediocrity at best now at canisius). Were the times different between now and 20 years ago? Absolutely.  Should the bar be higher now? Absolutely.  RW did a fine job righting the ship and taking UB from shambles to reasonably solid footing. In my opinion,  he got UB to the highest spot that he was capable of. BH and NO built upon that and won Championships. JW has been more than solid thus far and it's ridiculous to praise RW vehemently while knocking JW. Like another poster said a while back, if 20 wins and top 2 finish in the MAC isn't good enough for you, then you are confused on how Suny and mid majors work. I'd take a top 2 finish, with the opportunity to be in the title game, every single time. Bar raised? Heck yes, but at the same time be realistic and don't think that 30 wins is the new norm or level that success should be based upon. If the team doesn't win over the next few years and/or isn't in the top 3 yearly, then there is plenty to gripe about. Based on the first 2 years, I hardly think that there is any reasonable measure that would call for this staff's removal.

So Witherspoon got the Bulls to a mid-tier in a mid-major. Then we held on to him too long, maybe out of loyalty. The next two coaches were able to bring the team up to top tier of mid major. Being back at mid tier mid major with a coach who we all doubt could do better than that doesn’t feel good and doesn’t seem right for the flagship SUNY.

Edited March 20, 2021 by yussi1870
Missing end of sentence

[squire17]

Flagship SUNY? Really? Binghamton, Stony Brook, Albany? There is no SUNY flagship.