Jim Whitesell and UB Part Ways

[promotherobot]

Abilene Christian just took out Texas. Best part of the tournament for me, watching Goliath fall.

[DooleyBull06]

18 minutes ago, promotherobot said:

Abilene Christian just took out Texas. Best part of the tournament for me, watching Goliath fall.

I know some want Whitesell out. And some joked about Bennett being fired for losing but Shaka Smart’s seat in Texas will be warm after tonight. They have no patience down there. His regular season might have saved him but that performance tonight will reignite the flames.

[markchicago]

We have many significant donors.  UB is experiencing tremendous success in fund development.  A large focus is directed to academics and facilities.  We are a leading research center. Donor development has a short history.   As we continue to develop our brand and develop on- going success in football and basketball we will see more $$ for Athletics. Let’s get some big $$ from Khalil Mack and others who have the capacity and  recognition of UB’s contribution to their growth 

Go Bulls 

[UB05]

6 hours ago, DooleyBull06 said:

I know some want Whitesell out. And some joked about Bennett being fired for losing but Shaka Smart’s seat in Texas will be warm after tonight. They have no patience down there. His regular season might have saved him but that performance tonight will reignite the flames.

Of course I was joking about Bennett. It was hyperbole to show how absurd it is to call for a coaching change because we lost to Ohio in the MAC championship 

[McBulls]

8 hours ago, yussi1870 said:

We don’t have the donors to support a massive endowment like Bona. UB alum just don’t give, not the in numbers one would expect relative to our size.

Not sure if this is meant in jest. A simple trip to Wikipedia to evaluate endowment size:

St. Bonaventure $71.9 million

Buffalo $788.9 million

Gonzaga $308.2 million

Obviously we have far more students to support with said endowment. We also offer a greater variety of academic(undergrad and graduate) programs, some of which carry great expense (ie new medical school), than either of the above comparison institutions. But at least a large portion of this is volitional: we spend less money on athletics relative to our size/endowment, and these peer institutions place a greater value on the basketball programs for which their schools are known.

[DooleyBull06]

2 hours ago, UB05 said:

Of course I was joking about Bennett. It was hyperbole to show how absurd it is to call for a coaching change because we lost to Ohio in the MAC championship 

No I know you were joking. I was just saying that for Smart, that loss last night and grumblings in Texas aren’t. 

[BullBoy]

This thread is really getting pointless. Whitesell is not getting fired after a MAC championship game appearance and the NIT. 
 

if that was the case let’s fire Lance because he has lost in the championship game twice and oh let’s fire Felisha because they didn’t even get there this year. 

[MKBullsfan]

The whole point of this thread should be what happens next? Will any players leave this summer? The prior 2 coaches Hurley and Oats had a strong pipeline of recruits which got us excited for the future. What about now though and can we keep the winning tradition going? We’ll see. 

[DocCas86]

3 minutes ago, MKBullsfan said:

The whole point of this thread should be what happens next? Will any players leave this summer? The prior 2 coaches Hurley and Oats had a strong pipeline of recruits which got us excited for the future. What about now though and can we keep the winning tradition going? We’ll see. 

I agree - if JW holds team together than that is an off-season success. 

We will have to wait and see how recruiting pans out.  Generally reaction on this board to recruits has been initially favorable, but due to a couple of unfortunate events we have some holes to fill in future.  I for one am optimistic we can get some good recruits to add to Williamson

[mikescherrer8]

14 hours ago, squire17 said:

Got it. How does Bona get to pay its coach triple what UB does?

Probably donors, and prioritizing basketball in their athletics budget. Since basketball is what they have been known for, for the most part.

[UB05]

2 hours ago, Erie County said:

Yeah, and you continue to not get the point with proof by your terrible hyperboles.

It's not even close to the reason many would like a change.  We will start with his awful home record. His abysmal job with in game changes and lineups, his record in close games, and his recruiting abomination (including a scandal and coaching changes already). 

It's also the fact that there really isn't any Freshman - Juniors on the roster in 2021-2022. You realize this team only has one year left, and thats if no one leaves, right? 

I can't tell if it's intentional or if you are just obtuse. 

Lighten up Francis, it’s getting old

[RecoveringHillbilly]

1 hour ago, mikescherrer8 said:

Probably donors, and prioritizing basketball in their athletics budget. Since basketball is what they have been known for, for the most part.

Yep, I grew up in WV in the 80's wondering why WVU was playing Bona and Duquesne. That A10 legacy helped bring in good replacements in Dayton, St Louis, GMU, VCU, etc. Bona were not making the tournament most years but still became known as St Basketball. Bona spends 1/7 of their TOTAL university budget on athletics just to recruit and fundraise to stay out of a MAAC future. While they still spend the least on athletics in the A10. Schmidt enjoys the Olean life and they pay based on fundraising from their success the last few years. Their former coach made less than $200k.

We agreed to pay Oats $837K for 5 years based on fundraising. Otherwise, Reggie and Whitesell just earned MAC-comparable salaries. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by RecoveringHillbilly

[Tee4three]

Ub has the potential donor base, they just need them to become active, if alumni start donating it could be a water fall 

Patience is key, performances like ub football this past season and ub basketball the past few seasons will help and get more and more alumni involved 

 

[Jeseph]

1 hour ago, Tee4three said:

Ub has the potential donor base, they just need them to become active, if alumni start donating it could be a water fall 

Patience is key, performances like ub football this past season and ub basketball the past few seasons will help and get more and more alumni involved 

 

Sustained success and investment in winning all help with this.

We’re somewhat lucky that we didn’t have crowds this year with the losses at home.

If that gets fixed alone... our record greatly improves, our fans get to see fun basketball and the support grows. 

[UB05]

38 minutes ago, Erie County said:

I didn't go to the "you a miserable person" against you. You sure it's me that needs to lighten up? Differing opinions = awful miserable person

But you didn't actually address and of the real concerns I (or anyone else) just posted, just continue to post ridiculous things that none of us say because you don't want to see/hear thoughts that you don't want to be true. 

The team almost had to start over and reset after the Oats runs and getting bounced in front of a half full arena in the 5-12 play-in game. 

The donors had 900k ready for Oats. We can't all sit here with a straight face and say we can't make it happen. You can't blame the donors for not feeling like they need to come to the table with more money when they hired a 300k a year coach after using the buy-out fee on the basketball program. 300k can be a P5 endowment from one family.

 

There are legitimate concerns. The problem is that when everything is a concern for you and everything is terrible all the time well it kind of loses its impact. As for Jesef’s post that you quoted, I agree. We need to be better at home next season. I think that we will once fans are back in the seats, along with having a very strong roster packed with seniors. I’ll never understand people who choose to be so negative, especially with an amateur sport where KIDS come and play for the university, giving their all for free. As for the paid staff, time will tell if Whitesell was the right hire. So far the sample size is 2 years. 1) where we lost 4 starting seniors and our best 6th man in history, along with the entire recruiting class when Oats left, and 2) the year of covid where the season was a disjointed mess from the start and we still got to the MAC championship and a birth in the NIT. Am I disappointed we lost our final 2 games? Of course. But I’m also trying to be objective and rational about the situation. To expect the team to magically carry on the success of oats after losing Massinburg Harris Perkins Carothers and McCrae is not realistic. If you think that it is I don’t know what to tell you. If Whitesell can get a couple high level guards in the off-season everything will be just fine despite all the doom and gloom on this board. 

[UB85]

3 hours ago, UB05 said:

There are legitimate concerns. The problem is that when everything is a concern for you and everything is terrible all the time well it kind of loses its impact. As for Jesef’s post that you quoted, I agree. We need to be better at home next season. I think that we will once fans are back in the seats, along with having a very strong roster packed with seniors. I’ll never understand people who choose to be so negative, especially with an amateur sport where KIDS come and play for the university, giving their all for free. As for the paid staff, time will tell if Whitesell was the right hire. So far the sample size is 2 years. 1) where we lost 4 starting seniors and our best 6th man in history, along with the entire recruiting class when Oats left, and 2) the year of covid where the season was a disjointed mess from the start and we still got to the MAC championship and a birth in the NIT. Am I disappointed we lost our final 2 games? Of course. But I’m also trying to be objective and rational about the situation. To expect the team to magically carry on the success of oats after losing Massinburg Harris Perkins Carothers and McCrae is not realistic. If you think that it is I don’t know what to tell you. If Whitesell can get a couple high level guards in the off-season everything will be just fine despite all the doom and gloom on this board. 

Just a point about McRea. UB went win its first MAC Championship after he graduated. His class was a disappointing one. Aside from him the other four year seniors didn’t improve nearly enough for that class to get anywhere near its potential. Of course I think Hurley royally screwed up that quarterfinal game against EMU. But good points everywhere else. 

[yussi1870]

3 hours ago, UB05 said:

There are legitimate concerns. The problem is that when everything is a concern for you and everything is terrible all the time well it kind of loses its impact. As for Jesef’s post that you quoted, I agree. We need to be better at home next season. I think that we will once fans are back in the seats, along with having a very strong roster packed with seniors. I’ll never understand people who choose to be so negative, especially with an amateur sport where KIDS come and play for the university, giving their all for free. As for the paid staff, time will tell if Whitesell was the right hire. So far the sample size is 2 years. 1) where we lost 4 starting seniors and our best 6th man in history, along with the entire recruiting class when Oats left, and 2) the year of covid where the season was a disjointed mess from the start and we still got to the MAC championship and a birth in the NIT. Am I disappointed we lost our final 2 games? Of course. But I’m also trying to be objective and rational about the situation. To expect the team to magically carry on the success of oats after losing Massinburg Harris Perkins Carothers and McCrae is not realistic. If you think that it is I don’t know what to tell you. If Whitesell can get a couple high level guards in the off-season everything will be just fine despite all the doom and gloom on this board. 

College students are not kids. They are adults. They are men and women. Not boys and girls.

[UB05]

7 hours ago, UB85 said:

Just a point about McRea. UB went win its first MAC Championship after he graduated. His class was a disappointing one. Aside from him the other four year seniors didn’t improve nearly enough for that class to get anywhere near its potential. Of course I think Hurley royally screwed up that quarterfinal game against EMU. But good points everywhere else. 

Oh I was talking about montell, and the seniors who graduated when oats left. Felt like it would’ve been wrong to leave him out since technically he was a starter and had some big moments for us

[UB05]

9 hours ago, yussi1870 said:

College students are not kids. They are adults. They are men and women. Not boys and girls.

Perhaps you’ve forgotten what it was like to be a 20 year old. Personally if I were asked to be half as disciplined as these players are I’d have flamed out halfway through my first season 😂

[UB85]

4 hours ago, UB05 said:

Oh I was talking about montell, and the seniors who graduated when oats left. Felt like it would’ve been wrong to leave him out since technically he was a starter and had some big moments for us

Gotcha. I see McRea and I think if Javon naturally. Montell did a great job for us. 

[NYS Bulls]

15 hours ago, UB05 said:

There are legitimate concerns. The problem is that when everything is a concern for you and everything is terrible all the time well it kind of loses its impact. As for Jesef’s post that you quoted, I agree. We need to be better at home next season. I think that we will once fans are back in the seats, along with having a very strong roster packed with seniors. I’ll never understand people who choose to be so negative, especially with an amateur sport where KIDS come and play for the university, giving their all for free. As for the paid staff, time will tell if Whitesell was the right hire. So far the sample size is 2 years. 1) where we lost 4 starting seniors and our best 6th man in history, along with the entire recruiting class when Oats left, and 2) the year of covid where the season was a disjointed mess from the start and we still got to the MAC championship and a birth in the NIT. Am I disappointed we lost our final 2 games? Of course. But I’m also trying to be objective and rational about the situation. To expect the team to magically carry on the success of oats after losing Massinburg Harris Perkins Carothers and McCrae is not realistic. If you think that it is I don’t know what to tell you. If Whitesell can get a couple high level guards in the off-season everything will be just fine despite all the doom and gloom on this board. 

This looks like we have a 50-50 division here. Many drafted players in all sports go professional at 18+. They are adults and for many better players, they are getting ready for their professional career (through NCAA), somewhere in the world. I also would like to state that much of the defense is not to blame the coaches because the players aren't executing. So it's ok to blame the players in the guise to give the coaching staff a pass? Which way is it? We can't have it both. If they are just kids, the paid staff should hold enough more accountability. Which is where I tend to fit in. I blame the coaches the most in these situations where they are up 6 with 90 seconds left and are pushing the paces with 25 seconds on the shot-clock with a graves three. That's coaching. That's the issues a lot of us have. Though, this team has one year left of success before a huge problem if they don't figure it out now. The current staff or team (whichever you want to blame) can't get over the current hump, reminiscent of Reggie ball. We can continue to blame CJ/Perk graduating, but we will now be 3 years past that, and I hope it's an allowable time for everyone for a team to be in the tournament again. 

[121Merrimac]

4 hours ago, NYS Bulls said:

... Which way is it? We can't have it both. ...

I don’t understand why you say this.  I absolutely believe both the coaches and the players are at fault from time to time.  Everyone makes mistakes.  The key is that when they happen, the whole team learns from the experience. 

[McBulls]

I also think that we have a disconnect- most people on this board weren't up in arms during the extended solid play late in the year, including those (count me among them) who are skeptical about JW. What's more, I don't think a conference tournament finals loss is cause for panic. That said, all of the reasons listed that we lost that game (lack of depth, lack of shooting) are due to failure of JW to recruit or bringing in athletes that gave the program a black eye (kidnapping, stabbing rival player) and failed to contribute. 

I was a Reggie supporter and defender until the very end. I thought he had brought the program to a level we were lucky to reach and had done so with integrity. I was proud of the athletes that represented our school. Having seen the past two tenures, however, I want and expect more. When my coach says (paraphrasing): "We just lost BVP on that inbounds, hat tip to Ohio. They made some plays"- I want to tear my hair out. Can you imagine either of our last two coaches reacting in this manner? They'd immediately follow that our play, in that situation, wasn't good enough, was unacceptable. He seems to have no sense or urgency or have a set of expectations for these "kids." I don't think you get the job done without demanding better- either as a coach or as fans of a program. One more year- NCAA or start fresh.

[NYS Bulls]

2 minutes ago, McBulls said:

I also think that we have a disconnect- most people on this board weren't up in arms during the extended solid play late in the year, including those (count me among them) who are skeptical about JW. What's more, I don't think a conference tournament finals loss is cause for panic. That said, all of the reasons listed that we lost that game (lack of depth, lack of shooting) are due to failure of JW to recruit or bringing in athletes that gave the program a black eye (kidnapping, stabbing rival player) and failed to contribute. 

I was a Reggie supporter and defender until the very end. I thought he had brought the program to a level we were lucky to reach and had done so with integrity. I was proud of the athletes that represented our school. Having seen the past two tenures, however, I want and expect more. When my coach says (paraphrasing): "We just lost BVP on that inbounds, hat tip to Ohio. They made some plays"- I want to tear my hair out. Can you imagine either of our last two coaches reacting in this manner? They'd immediately follow that our play, in that situation, wasn't good enough, was unacceptable. He seems to have no sense or urgency or have a set of expectations for these "kids." I don't think you get the job done without demanding better- either as a coach or as fans of a program. One more year- NCAA or start fresh.

I like your thoughts. However, Most of us weren't up in arms because we get dubbed "haters' and "negative". We can't be. It's already came out many times in this thread about why people are miserable. There would be no reason to have a discussion about it, even when there were many issues that appeared, especially in the loss against Toledo and the win and 20 point come back by Akron. Even during the good stretch, why would we come in here to bash Whitesell? We still want to win basketball games. These are the biggest UB fan's probably on the planet that come on this board. You hit it the best though, we demand better as a program because this isn't 2005 anymore. Hurley and Oats put us on the map with their coaching, recruiting, and energy. Whitesell was left the prestige and recruits that neither of his predecessors had. Oats lost a lot of players too, but we didn't need to make excuses for losing Evans and other when Hurley left. Whitesell got those excuses. 

 

2 hours ago, 121Merrimac said:

I don’t understand why you say this.  I absolutely believe both the coaches and the players are at fault from time to time.  Everyone makes mistakes.  The key is that when they happen, the whole team learns from the experience. 

I say this because many do state it's the players that aren't executing the coaches plans, but then later say you can't blame kids because the are 19 years old and to think of what you were doing at 19. Maybe this doesn't fit you, but it does fit a contingent on here. 

[DooleyBull06]

Bottom line is we were all spoiled by the Hurley/Oats eras. In reaching those heights it diminished what Reggie did for the program. In reaching those heights we expect more from Whitesell. Especially since he’s doing it with mostly Oats’s players. In reaching those heights we all fear that after next season we will return to the Reggie days...which now look like crap because we’ve seen what the view from the mountain top looks like. Next season expectations are still high. After that we will all need patience and understanding